Images of 30P, 24p, and 60i

[Steve Rolufs]

>>There is no SCNA mode
>>Typo for "SCAN"

I'm sorry - I don't mean to contradict - but respectfully, as the one who posted the original information, I must disagree with (and correct) these statements.

There are two 24p modes on the shipping, production HVR-V1U:

One is "24pSCAN". The other is most definitely "24pSCNA" (although "SCN" is in all caps, "A" is a taller capital letter, if that makes sense). The "SCN" part is likely a short form for "SCAN" - but the A is deliberate, and "SCNA" I noted is not a typo or accidental juxtaposition of letters. (I think they could have been better-named and less-closely-named to avoid confusion, but that's what they are called).

24pSCNA is a different, distinct mode from 24pSCAN. On the shipping camera, this is clear both from the pink addendum/errata sheet included in the box, and more importantly, on the LCD/VF display markings on the camera (which show "24pSCAN" or "24pSCNA" depending upon which 24p mode is selected). 24pSCNA is the mode where "the phase of the 60i conversion is reset", the "time code does not progress", and "a momentary pause will occur between scenes".

The shorter form names for these modes (only used deep in the selection menu) are "24" and "24A". Perhaps we should just adopt these names in order to avoid confusion.

Anyway, that's the deal. I am hoping to shoot some footage in both of the 24p progressive modes (24pSCAN and 24pSCNA), pull them into the updated version of Vegas, and see what the difference is in how they're handled.

Steve R

[Bob Grant]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Bob, while the DV spec allows for all three sample rates, as you know, Vegas doesn't care about sample rate on the timeline, and will always render video to 48K, and always convert resample all rates to 48K/16bit without any issue.
Open a new project in Vegas without instructing the file properties to be 48k, and it's audio properties will always be 44.1 by default. Changing it up to 48k or down to 32K or any other bitrate won't change anything until you go to render. The default DV and MPEG templates are all compliant at 48K, so regardless of what sample format, codec, resolution you put on the timeline, Vegas will always conform the content to either the project settings as a temporary measure, or to the output template format.
The previous post suggests that Vegas is importing the audio at 44.1. This is simply an error of not understanding how Vegas works. Looking at the content's audio properties will reveal the sample rate of the content, which is irrelevant to the project properties.
To verify this, right click the event's audio, and choose "properties." The subsequent dialog will provide specific information about that event/audio settings. Set the project properties to 12k, 2 bit, and you'll not hear a change in the audio. Capture audio from a camcorder that recorded 48k/16bit audio, and you'll still get 48k/16bit audio even if the project settings are 12k/2bit. Vegas does nothing to a file on capture, save it be for writing header information about the file.

Sorry,
I misread the original post, I thought we were talking about the camera recording at 44.1, which was why I thought it pretty strange given that it is in the DV spec but it's never been used.

Now reading the post again I see we're talking about Vegas's default audio setting being 44.1KHz!

Well I long about changed my default to 48KHz so I'd kind of forgotten about that. There is a minor reason not to leave it 44.1 though, that's the sample rate it'll output audio to the soundcar during playback. Now while that doesn't make any difference to rendered output it does mean more work for the CPU.
On the other hand unless you get into Windows and disable all system sounds you might be better off leaving it at 44.1KHz. Otherwise the sound card is having it's sample rate changed back and forth and that can cause annoying glitches in audio playback, again doesn't affect rendered output though, only of nuisance value.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Steve Rolufs

>>There is no SCNA mode
>>Typo for "SCAN"

I'm sorry - I don't mean to contradict - but respectfully, as the one who posted the original information, I must disagree with (and correct) these statements.

There are two 24p modes on the shipping, production HVR-V1U:

One is "24pSCAN". The other is most definitely "24pSCNA" (although "SCN" is in all caps, "A" is a taller capital letter, if that makes sense). The "SCN" part is likely a short form for "SCAN" - but the A is deliberate, and "SCNA" I noted is not a typo or accidental juxtaposition of letters. (I think they could have been better-named and less-closely-named to avoid confusion, but that's what they are called).

24pSCNA is a different, distinct mode from 24pSCAN. On the shipping camera, this is clear both from the pink addendum/errata sheet included in the box, and more importantly, on the LCD/VF display markings on the camera (which show "24pSCAN" or "24pSCNA" depending upon which 24p mode is selected). 24pSCNA is the mode where "the phase of the 60i conversion is reset", the "time code does not progress", and "a momentary pause will occur between scenes".

The shorter form names for these modes (only used deep in the selection menu) are "24" and "24A". Perhaps we should just adopt these names in order to avoid confusion.

Anyway, that's the deal. I am hoping to shoot some footage in both of the 24p progressive modes (24pSCAN and 24pSCNA), pull them into the updated version of Vegas, and see what the difference is in how they're handled.

Steve R

Both the designer of the camera in Japan and the product manager in the USA state that it's a typo. Perhaps they're wrong.

[Steve Rolufs]

Are you absolutely sure?

If you see the addendum sheet, and see the on-screen displays - that statement just doesn't make any sense. (In other words - correct the "typo", and there's no differentiating the modes from each other in documentation discussion or onscreen display).

Also - if you look at the bitmap shown in the documentation and on screen for 24pSCNA - it's a distinctly and deliberately different icon (with a larger "A").

Lastly, this would have to be a "typo" in all languages of the doc, and at more importantly, at many different points throughout the firmware code and development (including by the person who created/painted the bitmap "icon" for "24pSCNA").

Honestly, if you take a look at it - it really seems clear that there are two modes, that each must (obviously) have a different distinct name to differentiate it (esp. as an on-screen indicator of which mode is currently active) - and the two names chosen were 24pSCAN and 24pSCNA (with the larger "A" I've noted, and "SCN" a short form of "scan").

Really, it's not as simple as a typo on an addendum page. It all makes perfect sense as I'm describing - but makes no sense at all if it's a "typo" all over the place (esp. if, as per above, you "correct" the typo yourself, as a logic exercise).

I fully realize that you have extensive experience with the prototype camera - but please, respectfully, see the shipping version for yourself and consider what I'm saying, and I think you'll agree with me that it's not a typo and it all makes perfect sense.

Steve R

[Tony Tibbetts]

Hi Steve,

From what you've described I'm inclined to believe you.

Perhaps to settle this once and for all you could post a picture of the LCD display menu which has the different 24p options. Possibly a scan of the addendum sheet?

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Steve, I haven't seen the shipping cam nor owners manual. When this came up on another forum, I sent an email to one of the camera designers, and also to the Sony USA product manager. Both indicated it was a typo, one in mail, one over the phone.
Could be they're wrong, and since I don't have a shipping cam in front of me as you do, I'm not in a position to be adamant. I have an owners guide, but it doesn't have the addendum sheet in it.
I've forwarded your post to both of them; it'll be interesting to hear what they say.
I won't have my production model for a few more days, or so I'm told.

[Steve Rolufs]

>>post a picture

Good idea, Tony.

See the attached pics of both menu selection (Camera Set -> Prog. Scan) and on-screen display indicators.

On the menu selection screen, note upper right annotation of currently selected menu item. On the OSD indicator, note, well, the indicator icon showing current 24p mode.

Steve R

[Tony Tibbetts]

Well now. I think that settles it.

I assume the "scnA" mode is the one that does the complete GOP thingamabob/whatchamacallit. Although I can see how there was some confusion to begin with. The progressive frame settings are labeled differently than what is displayed in the corner. 24 = 24p scan and 24A =24p scnA (Which obviously means "Scan A")

[Steve Rolufs]

They could have made this easier and clearer for everyone by just going with "24p" and "24pA" everywhere (including the OSD indicator).

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Steve Rolufs

Also - if you look at the bitmap shown in the documentation and on screen for 24pSCNA - it's a distinctly and deliberately different icon (with a larger "A").

Lastly, this would have to be a "typo" in all languages of the doc, and at more importantly, at many different points throughout the firmware code and development (including by the person who created/painted the bitmap "icon" for "24pSCNA").

You are right -- why on earth choose 24A which is so close to 24PA thus causing major confusion.

And, as I've posted before -- I just used Vegas with 24p from my prototype and it worked fine. Assuming this is 24pSCAN -- why is 24pSCNA needed?

Maybe the big "A" stands for Apple or Avid or Adobe. My guess Apple or Avid wanted to use TC not subcode to identify the judder frames. And, 24A provides a way to use TC with 100% realiability. (Using subcode would require far more programming, something Apple/Avid would not want to do.)

But, will folks really accept the pauses when playing tapes? IMHO, whichever NLE requires 24A is going to be at a disadvantage -- unless there is some really huge benefit to the user. Vegas already proves 24A is not necessary.

This may mean Vegas supports the original 24pSCAN (24p) using subcode and thus by definition it also works with 24pSCNA (24A).

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Steve Rolufs

See the attached pics of both menu selection (Camera Set -> Prog. Scan) and on-screen display indicators.

Can you check the Tele Macro mode. On my prototype, an indicator appears telling you it is OFF.

This makes no sense since TM is like Backlight -- one doesn't need to know it's OFF, only that it's ON.

I'm wondering if Sony fixed this.

Can you take a pix in 24p and 30p mode?

[Steve Rolufs]

Steve -> FOCUS MACRO still works as on your prototype: No indicator when it's ON, indicator when it's OFF.

May seem backwards, but here's the manual's explanation:

"Since the default setting is [ON], you can focus on a subject within 80 cm (about 2 5/8 feet). When FOCUS MACRO is set to [OFF], you cannot focus on a subject within 80 cm (about 2 5/8 feet) but you can easily find the focal point of a subject at 80 cm or further regardless of the zoom position."

Seems that they configured it the way they did because it's the default, and the expected most to leave it on. (Any downside to leaving it on?)

BTW - When they say "you can easily find..." - do they mean "Auto-focus can more easily find" ('cause I don't seem to have any trouble with either setting).

[Thomas Smet]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Used Liquid to capture the three clips and pulled snapshots as you advised. Here they are. There's an extra #3 because toward the end of the clip there was a brightness increase. (Didn't see this with Vegas.)

Steve thanks for the images. Did you try changing the properties to non interlaced for the 24p and 30p samples? Also I was really hoping the pulldown would get removed. Did it? I know with Liquid a 24p DVD will come in as 24p with it removing the pulldown on import. This only works with mpeg-2 with the flags set correctly which I had hope 24p from the V1 would have worked as.

[Thomas Smet]

Originally Posted by Steve Rolufs

>>post a picture

Good idea, Tony.

See the attached pics of both menu selection (Camera Set -> Prog. Scan) and on-screen display indicators.

On the menu selection screen, note upper right annotation of currently selected menu item. On the OSD indicator, note, well, the indicator icon showing current 24p mode.

Steve R

Well now that looks like two different 24p modes to me.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

I wasn't aware it has been suggested that there are *not* two 24p modes on the camcorder; quite the contrary. Re-read above and you'll see wherein I mention the two modes a couple days back.

I'm embarassed, but also surprised, that the designer of the camcorder and the US product manager (nor myself) picked up that "SCNA" is the same as "Scan-A." No one else seems to have caught that either, but that's no excuse on my part.
The reason it appears as scnA is that there is a 7 character limit on that menu, and therefore "Scan-A" wasn't an option. The truncated version is therefore "24pscnA"
My apologies to Steve Rolufs.

As mentioned earlier, Sony Vegas manages both modes, as it correctly reads the subcode from the standard mode, or can work with the assured 3:2 cadence mode, either one, from either the camcorder or the DR60.

24p=A recorded segment may end where the 3:2 cadence may not be properly picked up by next segment. At the moment, only Sony Vegas correctly reads this.
24pScan-A=Forces the start frame of a recorded segment to a 3:2 cadence. Any NLE supporting HDV 24p should read this correctly.