Images of 30P, 24p, and 60i

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

PS: How do I use Liquid to grab better images. I'll post them as soon as I grab them.

Use Sony Vegas set to Best/Full, HDV Rack, or FrameGrabber for grabbing stills for best presentation. FCP isn't a great tool for grabbing stills.

[Todd Giglio]

Hi,

I imported each clip into photoshop. I then resized each clip to 1920x1080 (this is the true format you get with HDV). I then spliced a 640x1080 image of each clip in thirds and combined them. The image I've attached is a 1920x1080, with the image 1, then image 2, then image 3. I did this to see if there was an obvious division line between the three images.

I find it difficult visually to see where the division line is (keep in mind that the three individual clips are of equal size: the first, second, and third images are all 640x1080 to combine the 1920x1080 image).

I did notice that the original image 1 is brighter than the other two, and that image 3 is slightly brighter than image 2. Also, if you look at the pitcher from the original three images, there is a change in the handle (something moved between image 1 and the other images; could be the lighting difference).

I didn't do any processing aside from resizing the image to the proper aspect ratio.

I will be getting my V1U tomorrow and plan on taping my 3 year old's school Christmas play (hopefully...). I will be making comparisons on the 24p, 24pA, 30p, and 60i. I plan on shooting with the 24p for an Indie film next fall.

Hope this helps.

Todd

[Todd Giglio]

Here is the same image but with a small white line that shows where the division between the separate images are. Again, the original image 1 is the first third, the original image 2 is the second third, and the original image 3 is the last third.

Todd

[Tony Tremble]

The image, attachmentid=1585, is by far the best image. I think this is the image people are saying is soft. But it isn't. The other two images suffer from a bit of aliasing which gives a bit of zing to the image hence the sharper comments.

There are much more jaggies in 1586 and 1591.

I am hoping 1585 is 30P which will bode well for 25P. But it's probably 60i comparing what I am seeing in 50i.

TT

[Zsolt Gordos]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Coffee Bean's my spot in Las Vegas. Here are pix from K.L. Malaysia.

Ah, the Coffee bean in Times Square KL... I will be there soon..in February.

[Zsolt Gordos]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

a still image grabbed from FCP (you were correct) and/or viewed as video.

Steve, could you please tell me how to grab stills from FCP? My V1E arrived today and I would like to test and post stills for further assessment in the forum.

Thanks,

Zsolt

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Tony Tremble

The image, attachmentid=1585, is by far the best image. I think this is the image people are saying is soft. But it isn't. The other two images suffer from a bit of aliasing which gives a bit of zing to the image hence the sharper comments.

There are much more jaggies in 1586 and 1591.

I am hoping 1585 is 30P which will bode well for 25P.

TT

Now that YOU've had a chance to view these -- #1585 (Image 1) is 60i. At my end, this clearly has more detail on the wood grain.

The other two are progressive. They are a bit softer to my eyes. But, these could be from my capture from FCP. I'll try Vegas.

Now which is 24p and 30p?

[Boyd Ostroff]

Originally Posted by Zsolt Gordos

Steve, could you please tell me how to grab stills from FCP?

Choose Export > Quicktime then pick still image from the dropdown menu. Then pick the file/compression format you want to use.

[Tony Tremble]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Now that YOU've had a chance to view these -- #1585 (Image 1) is 60i. At my end, this clearly has more detail on the wood grain.

The other two are progressive. They are a bit softer to my eyes. But, these could be from my capture from FCP. I'll try Vegas.

Now which is 24p and 30p?

Steve,

Should we expect 24P ,25P ,30P to be as good as 50i, 60i with updates to NLEs?

From what you and Thomas are discussing it appears that NLEs treat Progressive HDV differently to Interlaced. As the Progressive images from the Sony are Interlaced this may/is causing the loss in quality over 50i, 60i. So can the quality be improved with updates to NLEs or is this a fundamental limitation of Progressive segmented frames in the HDV context?

Cheers

TT

[Jerome Marot]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Here are three images. Is one of significantly lower quality? Which one?

These are the obvious differences I see.

Look at the left cup, the reflection behind the words "no sugar added" change between 1 and 2/3 (other reflections in other cups too).

The main difference between 2 and 3 seems to be a slightly different gamma.

Between 1 and 2/3 the details in the wood grain appear muted. However, the details in the high contrast small prints on the coffee packages or cups are similar. Therefore the high contrast resolution of the picture is not degraded in the progressive pictures versus the interlaced pictures, but the low contrast resolution appears to be degraded.

Maybe we are seeing noise reduction kicking in (progressive should halve the sensitivity over interlaced). What where the gain values for each picture?

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Tony Tremble

So can the quality be improved with updates to NLEs or is this a fundamental limitation of Progressive segmented frames in the HDV context?

That's the question I'm wondering about. It seems DSE should know the answer to this, but for some reason he is refusing to provide ANY explanation of Vegas support for the V1.

Yet he claims to be very plugged into the Vegas implementation which he says supports 24PA -- whatever this is.

And, what about the claimed FCP support at the time V1 shipping?

Something is going on, but it's getting a bit late in the day since folks are now getting their V1s today!

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Jerome Marot

(progressive should halve the sensitivity over interlaced). What where the gain values for each picture?

All CMOS captures are at 60p and both I and P are passed through a 30% low-pass filter. So images "should" be identical as is sensitivity.

But, the question of the hour is can/should an NLE process the P video differently than I video?

If it should, and it's not, then work needs to be done on the NLEs. Which is why what Vegas is or is not doing needs to be fully explained. We really shouldn't have to guessing at all this.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

I'm following this thread with great interest; however my impression is that the alleged softness of progressive modes is now being associated with the way NLE's treat them. Please remember that even before compressing and writing to tape, the V1E produces a much softer image on a full res monitor when in 25p than in 50i, hooked vis component or HDMI alike!

[Philip Williams]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

I'm following this thread with great interest; however my impression is that the alleged softness of progressive modes is now being associated with the way NLE's treat them. Please remember that even before compressing and writing to tape, the V1E produces a much softer image on a full res monitor when in 25p than in 50i, hooked vis component or HDMI alike!

Are you referring to the "oil paint" effect 25P? Because that's a whole other ball game. This set of images, while not exactly what I would have been looking for in progressive mode, certainly aren't anywhere near the mess of the 25P stuff on the problem cameras..

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

That's the question I'm wondering about. It seems DSE should know the answer to this, but for some reason he is refusing to provide ANY explanation of Vegas support for the V1.

Yet he claims to be very plugged into the Vegas implementation which he says supports 24PA -- whatever this is.

And, what about the claimed FCP support at the time V1 shipping?

Something is going on, but it's getting a bit late in the day since folks are now getting their V1s today!

I haven't seen a specific question, Steve, so I don't know how to answer your comment that I've "refused" to answer anything.
So here goes:
1. The "SCNA" mode mentioned in the addendum that has had everyone speculating about what it means is......

Typo for "SCAN" mode.

2. There is no 24PA mode on the V1, please don't put words in my mouth, especially when I've taken *great* pains to explain why there is no PA mode with a GOP structure.
There are two modes in the V1.
~one mode freezes the end frame/stop so that every segment begins with a perfect 3:2 cadence when the camcorder is started.
~one mode does not.

Various NLE's may or may not be able to manage the second mode; all NLE's manage the first mode correctly, or should.
Vegas intelligently supports both modes through reading of subcode.
That's the answer to the Vegas question on the V1. I've already answered any question posed regarding the DR 60.

I suppose that I'm still "refusing" to answer a question somewhere, but given that this thread is already ridiculously long, it's merged from 3 different threads, and it's Superbowl production season...I've got better things to be doing than trying to read through the entire thread to find the nugget of a question that perhaps has never been specifically asked.

If you have a *specific* question about Vegas and what it is doing with the frames or DR60, please start a new thread and ask the question. If I don't know the specific answer, I'll find it, and post at my earliest convenience.
Some of us are full-time production people, and actually shoot cameras and edit for a living. I'm sure that's a difficult concept, but believe it or not...that's how it works with most of the wranglers here.