V1 25p issues (combined threads)

[Chris Hurd]

Sorry Spot, private messaging is purposefully disabled across the site:
See http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=81230

You guys will have to use email please. If a member chooses not to
disclose their email address, then that's certainly their prerogative.

And no we're not going to use this site to attack any dealers.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Ooops! Didn't realize PM's have been disabled. My mistake.

[Tony Tremble]

Piotr

There shouldn't be any need to send emails as you should have complete confidence when buying from any reputable dealer.

If I was in your situation the safest thing to do would be to wait until I, my dealer and Sony have come to a complete understanding of the issue. You will then be able to buy from anyone you like.

Knowing the dealer I purchased from won't give you any guarantees that they received a duff batch or just one or any other dealer is in a better position.

I can assure you and anyone else interested that I will post the definitive answer when I have it.

Believe me, I am so hoping this is a duff unit because the camera in every other way is the dog's bollox. The ergonomics are superb.

TT

[Chris Hurd]

By the way folks, I have happily removed some posts from this thread which were made in extremely poor taste, insinuating that one person called another a liar. That's horrible, and such behavior will not be tolerated here. DO NOT flame other members on this site!

DO NOT RESPOND if you think a flame has been directed at you personally. Instead, use the "report bad post" function, which is the little red triangle icon at the bottom left of every post. This will send a message to a moderator and we'll do the cleaning up ourselves. If you reply to what you think is a flame, why then your reply will be removed as well, and you're just wasting your time and ours.

DV Info Net is a flame-free zone.

If you think you've been flamed, REPORT IT. But DO NOT RESPOND to it.

Once again, I'm going to ask folks to please keep their delicate sensibilities in check when posting here. There will be no emotional outbursts allowed on this site. Nobody is calling anybody a liar. If I see that kind of accusation again, I'm going to start locking accounts, starting with the so-called "victim" for first for making the mistake of taking an issue personally and second for not following forum policy by failing to properly report what is suspected to be a bad post.

DO NOT RESPOND to this message either. I'll simply remove any replies. If you have a problem with how I run this site, feel free to vent your anger at me via private email.

Okay -- now we return to our regularly scheduled programming. Thread remains open.

[Scott Webster]

I will have access to a PAL V1 today. One of our clients has been sponsored by Sony with a camera for a doco shoot they are about to depart on. This is a 'as sold by a retailer' model, not a pre-production or factory demo.

Given these reports I have asked him to bring the camera in to allow us to check the camera doesn't produce the same effect.

We briefly had the camera in last Friday and had it connected to a Panasonic BT-LH1700 LCD via component. Nothing lept out at me as being soft or the 'water colour effect'. I have seen Simon's and Tony's sample frames.

I will let Chris know if we have anything that is worthwhile posting.
Chris if you can find my missing 't' I'd really appreciate it!

[Ray Bell]

Well I know Tony is bumbed out and rightly so... we all feel for ya and of course we all hope that this issue is just a bad single Cam....

There are others reporting on other newsgroups that the Sony is working fine, at least in PAL land, no reports of any Cam's in the USA yet.....

If you look around there are also at least one site that has the user manual that can be down loaded too..

[Scott Webster]

Sorry Tony, the V1 we have demoed does not display any of the loss of detail as per yours or Simon's frames. Everything is sharp, clear and detailed in 25p. The camera LCD and Pansonic BT-LH1700 can't be faulted.

Tomorrow we'll have more time to put some material through Final Cut and see if anything is turning up when going to tape.

Scott Webster
www.rocketrentals.com

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Here's where an understanding of HOW a camcorder works can help.

Ask the Sony techs, but I'm pretty sure the V1 doesn't work at all how you describe. For the 50i/60i mode you're describing conventional interlaced scanning, but AFAI can tell, the V1 doesn't ever scan interlaced, it only scans progressively, and does an HVX-style 1080/60p scan which then gets sliced into fields. All frames are scanned progressively. I don't have one in front of me, but a simple way to tell would be to see if there's a sensitivity difference between 24p mode and 60i mode. If it gets a stop faster in 60i mode, it's probably scanning interlaced. If there's no difference in sensitivity, it's almost unquestionably scanning progressive.

As for this part: "Region 60 UNITS in 24p mode: Choose 24 of the 60p frames and add pulldown to get 60 fields."

That's completely wrong. The CCD isn't scanned at 60Hz when in 24P mode; if it was the motion would look awful -- more akin to CineFrame 24. In the V1, HVX, HD100 etc. the CCD is actually reclocked to 24Hz, and scanned at 24Hz. The fields are generated in the recording, but it doesn't have 60p frames to start from, it starts from 24 frames.

[Tony Tremble]

Originally Posted by Scot Webster

Sorry Tom, the V1 we have demoed does not display any of the loss of detail as per yours or Simon's frames. Everything is sharp, clear and detailed in 25p. The camera LCD and Pansonic BT-LH1700 can't be faulted.

Tomorrow we'll have more time to put some material through Final Cut and see if anything is turning up when going to tape.

Scott Webster
www.rocketrentals.com

It's only going to tape or capturing live through firewire that the loss in resolution and blurring occurs.

Live output to Sony production grade HD monitor (via component) showed no change in image quality between 50i and 25P

It's only when 25P undergoes HDV compression to tape or through live capture.

As a test I de-interlaced the 50i captures and they still retain more information/detail than the 25P captures. That alone should send warning bells to anyone considering this camera.

Also be aware that capturing is flaky in FCP with the V1e. I thought I had a duff FW cable but the same fault was repeated by my dealer. The capture starts, captures random lengths between 12 frames and 3 seconds then loses sync. The for no apparent reason will then work fine.

We didn't get very far yesterday. Apart from me being told a complete and utter load of rubbish. As a result I was extremely cranky yesterday. No excuses.

Today is a new day. The sun is shining.

Any help anyone can give to this problem will be gratefully received as I am losing confidence in those around me.

TT

[John Hewat]

As someone who has ordered a V1P, I have a question.

If all models arrive and, as reported, the 25p mode is truly useless, do we have grounds to return the camera for a refund?

Or can they just say something to the effect of "Well that's just the capability of that camera, so suck on that?"

I'm getting nervous about it.

[Tony Tremble]

John

My worries exactly.

Let's just hold on and hope my unit is duff....But it's scaring the s..... out of me.

If this camera is a representative model then there to my mind there is a clear case of misrepresentation with the marketing of this camera and what it delivers.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. I am clinging on to the hope this is a dud.

TT

[Scott Webster]

Tony, We'll go into FCP tomorrow and double check. The team using the camera are doing a once in a lifetime doco. I would hate for them to spend 2 months documenting this story only to find the camera has let them down.

http://www.onfilm.co.nz/editorial.as...ID=23920&src=H

http://www.takuufilm.blogspot.com/

Scott Webster
www.rocketrentals.com

[Heath McKnight]

Barry is right; when I switch the DVX100a from 24p to 30p to 60i, the image gets brighter without me touching the exposure controls. Same thing with the V1u when I go from 24p to 30p to 60i, but NOT the Z1u--I can go from CineFrame to no CineFrame but see no difference in exposure.

As far as I can tell, the way the progressive scanning is put into an interlace stream is the same basic way that Panasonic is doing it on their cameras.

heath

Originally Posted by Barry Green

Ask the Sony techs, but I'm pretty sure the V1 doesn't work at all how you describe. For the 50i/60i mode you're describing conventional interlaced scanning, but AFAI can tell, the V1 doesn't ever scan interlaced, it only scans progressively, and does an HVX-style 1080/60p scan which then gets sliced into fields. All frames are scanned progressively. I don't have one in front of me, but a simple way to tell would be to see if there's a sensitivity difference between 24p mode and 60i mode. If it gets a stop faster in 60i mode, it's probably scanning interlaced. If there's no difference in sensitivity, it's almost unquestionably scanning progressive.

As for this part: "Region 60 UNITS in 24p mode: Choose 24 of the 60p frames and add pulldown to get 60 fields."

That's completely wrong. The CCD isn't scanned at 60Hz when in 24P mode; if it was the motion would look awful -- more akin to CineFrame 24. In the V1, HVX, HD100 etc. the CCD is actually reclocked to 24Hz, and scanned at 24Hz. The fields are generated in the recording, but it doesn't have 60p frames to start from, it starts from 24 frames.

[Heath McKnight]

Before you jump to conclusions, why not call Sony up and talk to their excellent pro tech support (all pro Sony models come with it; all tech support for consumer models like the FX1 or FX7 are routed through the consumer division) and see what's up.

heath

Originally Posted by Tony Tremble

John

My worries exactly.

Let's just hold on and hope my unit is duff....But it's scaring the s..... out of me.

If this camera is a representative model then there to my mind there is a clear case of misrepresentation with the marketing of this camera and what it delivers.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. I am clinging on to the hope this is a dud.

TT

[Tony Tremble]

Originally Posted by Heath McKnight

Barry is right; when I switch the DVX100a from 24p to 30p to 60i, the image gets brighter without me touching the exposure controls. Same thing with the V1u when I go from 24p to 30p to 60i, but NOT the Z1u--I can go from CineFrame to no CineFrame but see no difference in exposure.

As far as I can tell, the way the progressive scanning is put into an interlace stream is the same basic way that Panasonic is doing it on their cameras.

heath

Heath,

No change in brightness going from interlace to Prog on my V1e.

TT