Is the V1 higher rez than Z1?

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

If you have the V1 in iris-only mode, and gain and aperture are set to manual, you'll not see the gain increase as shutter increases or apterture is stopped down. you have to manulally add gain if you want it in those modes.
Our training DVD on the V1 goes through these modes somewhat deeply.

[Tim Le]

The V1 also has a limiter on the automatic gain control (AGC). You can set the AGC to max out at any gain setting, including zero dB. So if the AGC limiter is set to zero dB, I'd imagine no gain would be added even in full auto mode. But I'm not sure if this is true since the manual is not out yet.

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

Some good points Chris. But let me ask you this, I too owned the FX1 and never got grain to the extent that showed up on that German site with the frame grabs from the FX1/FX7. Have you ever gotten video noise that bad as showed up in those grabs? I found those shots very odd.

I assume you guys are talking about this site:

http://www.fxsupport.de/12.html

I did note in my first experience with the FX1 that at a lot of grain would show up in certain situations. Could even occur in daylight when I was stopping down and using ND. I had not realized that "auto" gain was always on whether or not I was shooting in auto or manual modes. I had assumed that if I shot the FX1 in manual shutter and exposure modes, no gain would be added unless in pushed the gain button. I did not realize that if I wanted no gain, in my shot, that I needed to have it programmed into one of the selector switches, and have gain control selected. It took my feeble brain a long time to grasp that. Since I don't do this for a livelyhood, I was not concerned about it, but it was only when I sat down and really looked into it, that I discovered that. With that discovery, that grain that showed up occasionally to my chagrin does not come into play any longer, unless I want to push things with a high gain at the end....

As I recollect, I think I can limit the gain on the FX1 too in the auto mode, but I just don't have the camera available to confirm it at the moment..

[Chris Barcellos]

Follow up:

I saw another thread yesterday with shots from FX7. One of the shots had the white feathers on the breast of a bird blown out. Right away, others were questioning latitude of the FX7. Of course, it was just an exposure issue, and the poster was not claiming he had done everything to expose the scene properly.

Point of all of this is, any of the cameras we have available to us these days can do spectacular work, if you have the patience and time to discover what the camera can do.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

Follow up:

I saw another thread yesterday with shots from FX7. One of the shots had the white feathers on the breast of a bird blown out. Right away, others were questioning latitude of the FX7. Of course, it was just an exposure issue, and the poster was not claiming he had done everything to expose the scene properly.

Point of all of this is, any of the cameras we have available to us these days can do spectacular work, if you have the patience and time to discover what the camera can do.

I saw that too and anyone familar with video would not have been concerned about the feathers being blown out with the camera in full auto. The camera was obviously reading the surrounding darker waters.

[Robert Ducon]

To the poster who said they used their HV10 after they used the FX7.

How do the pictures on the german site - frame grabs from the FX7 - compare in terms of SHARPNESS to frame grabs from your HV10?

I still see fuzz that reminds me of my experiences with Z1U/FX1s - didn't look as sharp as I initially expected.

Ignoring latitude and colour, how does the sharpness of the FX7 compare to your HV10?

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Robert Ducon

To the poster who said they used their HV10 after they used the FX7.

How do the pictures on the german site - frame grabs from the FX7 - compare in terms of SHARPNESS to frame grabs from your HV10?

I still see fuzz that reminds me of my experiences with Z1U/FX1s - didn't look as sharp as I initially expected.

Ignoring latitude and colour, how does the sharpness of the FX7 compare to your HV10?

Robert, that would have been me. I've not taken any frame grabs from my HV10 to compare to the German site, but I've found the video of the HV10 to be quieter than the FX7. I find the FX7 footage, although very nice, is still not quite as clean as the HV10 (at least in full auto mode). Sharpness is pretty close, but Sony tends to use more edge enhancement than Canon. I've seen the same pattern with their digital cameras. In my two encounters with the FX7, I come away feeling the HV10 footage looks more high end, more professional. But remember, the two cameras have very different purposes. Although I prefer the video quality of the HV10, I wouldn't use it professionally due to limitations like mike inputs and others. But for a "fun" HDV camera, I have yet to see video from any other HDV camera (including the FX1 that I had owned) that beats this tiny cam in picture quality. Keep in mind I haven't yet played with the larger, newer Canons (A1, G1).

[Nick Ambrose]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

Some good points Chris. But let me ask you this, I too owned the FX1 and never got grain to the extent that showed up on that German site with the frame grabs from the FX1/FX7. Have you ever gotten video noise that bad as showed up in those grabs? I found those shots very odd.

I have got some extreme FX1 grain on some underwater shots I took when I enabled a red filter (which limits the amount of light coming in). I dont have any to post, but I was shocked at what I was seeing.

With the gain manually set even to zero it was far far better (but I didnt shoot anything that way on the same day for a side by side comparison)

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Let me start by saying I don't mean at all to bash the HV10. I bought one. But had to return it.

View these two clips:

Sony HC3

Canon HV10

These shots were taken during identical conditions within 15 mins of each other, the only better comparative would have been wearing two cameras on the same helmet, which is not the most safe thing in the world to do, assuming the helmet will even mount them side by side.
Both cams had stabilization disabled.


The HV10 exhibits identical behavior on an ATV rubber mount, and on a horseback helmet mount. I was really saddened to see this, because the HC3 has no audio features, but the HV10 does, so was excited for this little camcorder.
That said, the A1 shares the same OIS system as the HV10, if I'm understanding what I'm told.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

If you have the V1 in iris-only mode, and gain and aperture are set to manual, you'll not see the gain increase as shutter increases or apterture is stopped down. you have to manulally add gain if you want it in those modes.
Our training DVD on the V1 goes through these modes somewhat deeply.

Am I missing something, Douglas, but isn't iris and aperture the same thing?

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Let me start by saying I don't mean at all to bash the HV10. I bought one. But had to return it.

View these two clips:

Sony HC3

Canon HV10

These shots were taken during identical conditions within 15 mins of each other, the only better comparative would have been wearing two cameras on the same helmet, which is not the most safe thing in the world to do, assuming the helmet will even mount them side by side.
Both cams had stabilization disabled.


The HV10 exhibits identical behavior on an ATV rubber mount, and on a horseback helmet mount. I was really saddened to see this, because the HC3 has no audio features, but the HV10 does, so was excited for this little camcorder.
That said, the A1 shares the same OIS system as the HV10, if I'm understanding what I'm told.

I can't get to these clips, the link isn't working. But my experience with the HC3 which I had owned and the current HV10 is that the HV10 has unquestionably better picture quality. It's more noise free with better resolution and color than the HC3. As I've mentioned, I was even favorably impressed with the HV10 relative to the FX7. But yes, it would be nice to have the audio input and other goodies. But for me it's simply a high quality 'fun' HDV cam that seems to take better video than anything I've seen! :)

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Am I missing something, Douglas, but isn't iris and aperture the same thing?

Yes. In my vocabulary, I refer to the blades that control exposure as the "aperture."
Sony have a specific series of settings for the camera all labeled "Iris."
You can have:
Manual iris
Manual iris that when stopped down will auto-increase gain
or
Manual iris that when stopped down decreases shutter.

[Robert Ducon]

Douglas,

I'd love to watch the clips but as another posted said, they're not working. Could you explain what you noticed between the cameras?

Like everyone else, wish the HV10 had mic-input (I can see why they didn't include it - marketing dept). It'd make a great backup camera or family movie camera, no doubt.

I'm interested in any camera that offers HD at sharper quality than the Z1/FX1 or V1/FX7 - value $!

But what of the HC3 vs HV10?

[Paulo Teixeira]

Originally Posted by Robert Ducon

Like everyone else, wish the HV10 had mic-input (I can see why they didn't include it - marketing dept). It'd make a great backup camera or family movie camera, no doubt.

One of the reasons is because it’s cheaper to leave those out. I think a manual focusing ring and a microphone input should be standard on any camcorder $1000 and up but when the HC3 came out with much less features then the HC1, a lot of people considered the HC3 as the better camcorder saying that the extra features aren’t necessary for a consumer. Now if Canon knew that Sony was going to release a UX1/SR1 with more manual features than the HC3, then I bet the HV10 would have indeed included a microphone input and a manual focusing ring.

[Robert Ducon]

Resolution like that isn't nessisary either, but it's there. Sure, it's cheaper to use the same components multiple cameras, but I'm in marketing, so I'm biased.

I still think Canon wasn't dumb and realized that the image was really really good, and didn't want it to even dare touch sales of it's higher end cameras. It you look at the prices of the two cameras under the XH-H1, and their spec differences, I doubt that HD-SDI is really that much more expensive of an option between the two. Of course not. It's the marketing department going "look, we know users want this.. so, they can have it, if they spend two more grand.. woohoo!"

Anyhow, I want an HV15.. with mic input of course - at no extra cost. ;)