24p edit

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

CineForm works great for removing the pulldown on capture or conversion, whether for Vegas or Premiere Pro.

[Jerry Waters]

A lot of things will pull down but Sony has a way of taking the original 24p signal and turning it into 60i. I think the idea is to do an exact reversal of that process to get back to the original and that means doing it the way Sony prescribes and I imagine Sony has given that to all the NLEs out there so they can handle the footage the best way. I would think that Vegas would be one of the best at handling it. (But then I sometimes wonder if one division at Sony knows what the others are doing.)

[Jerry Waters]

Could it be that the new Sony camera is a different system? I just read this:

"Internally the V1 processes imagery at a torrential 1080x1920, 4:2:2, 60p. Although there’s no way to capture this much information via HDV — which is reduced in pixel count, chrominance sampling, and field output to 1080x1440, 4:1:0, and 60i before heavy compression — the V1 presents an intriguing new possibility: an HDMI connector for uncompressed HD output (1080x1440). HDMI (High Definition Multimedia Interface) is basically an upgrading of DVI with embedded digital rights management. Ostensibly it’s there for digital monitoring, but think of HDMI as a poor man’s HD-SDI. Blackmagic Design certainly does. The company has just announced Intensity, its (and the world’s) first HDMI editing card, for all of $249. All you have to do is figure out how to capture the resulting flood of data. But hey, the equivalent of HD-SDI from a 24p prosumer camcorder? What more could you ask for?

"Speaking of 24p, the V1 adds 2:3 pulldown and records the resulting segmented 24p frames to tape as 60i HDV. In restoring 24p for editing, are there compatibility issues with popular NLEs? Not as long as the 2:3 cadence is understood by the NLE, but it appears that Sony flags its 24p-to-60i cadence differently from Panasonic’s, which in turn is incompatible with JVC’s solution. (Expect a computer company named for a fruit to supply an answer to all of this mess within a matter of weeks.) Like the Z1, the V1 internally downconverts and makes a terrific DV and DVCAM camcorder."

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Jerry Waters

... but it appears that Sony flags its 24p-to-60i cadence differently from Panasonic’s, which in turn is incompatible with JVC’s solution.

Of course JVC 24p is different as it doesn't use pulldown at all. It uses Repeat flags which are part of the MPEG-2 spec.

Canon doesn't use pulldown either -- as the HDV spec was amended to support 1080/24p.

Panasonic most likely uses whatever it used on the DVX100 for 24P and 24PA. If Sony uses Industry Standard 2:3 then, of course, it will be different that Panasonic 24PA which is 2:3:3:2. That's because 24PA is a Panasonic cadence.

So when you claim Sony is different than Panasonic it means nothing unless you specify WHICH Panasonic cadence.

I've heard nothing that says Sony isn't using Industry Standard 2:3 pulldown -- so it might be useful to site your source. DSE should know.

My calculations also show that the concern about 4:2:0 and progressive is invalid. Reverse pulldown C frame gets a Cb field and a Cr field. Each is combined with another field, but that is irrelevant as all that's important is A, B, C, and D all get both Cb and Cr.

So another negative rumor put to bed.

As far as the 2 judder frames being harder to compress -- yes they should be. But the other 3 frames should be easier. Since MPEG-2 CBR maintains a GOP level bit-buffer -- I'm not sure anyone could prove one way or the other that PsF yields more or less quality than 24p.

Lastly, while DSE claims we are not near 60p and be content with 24p -- JVC is 45-days away and the Sony V1 is really ALMOST there now. The CMOS and EIP are running at 1080/60p.

Japan is now promoting "Full HD" -- and folks might just be surprised at what consumer HD camcorders are going to offer in 2007. Try this link:

http://www.national.com/JPN/news/ite...40,515,00.html

"HD has been surpassed with the introduction of full HD, leading you to ask whether we have been using incomplete HD all this while? Actually, full HD means 1080p HD ."

We do not know the Sony encoder cannot encode 1080/60p. Which means all Sony needs is a hard disk camcorder -- which they will in a few days. Perhaps that's what the so far unused 24Mbps AVCHD spec is for.

60p -- both 720 and 1080 are coming fast.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Lastly, while DSE claims we are not near 60p and be content with 24p -- JVC is 45-days away and the Sony V1 is really ALMOST there now. The CMOS and EIP are running at 1080/60p.
.

You will not see 1080 p60 broadcast for a long, long (sing along with as many "long's" as you'd like) time. The bandwidth doesn't exist. With PsF, it's doable, but otherwise, not. With PsF, the tools currently aren't in place.
Any persons delivering to or working with broadcasters know they move more slowly than cold tar running up hill, just like the army and just like the government.
So, even if Sony/Grass Valley/PESA/Ikegami *did* have 60p-capable switchers, the rest of the infrastructure isn't there.
Delivery of 60p on BD is quite possible, of course, once we're able to author set-top BD. This isn't as easy as so many have thought. I do have a BD burner sitting right here in my machine...If I could, I'd be churning out BD discs right now, for experimental purposes.
I guess I could use my F300, route to that device and record BD that way...;-)

[Floris van Eck]

So Douglas, please explain me why I would or would not want 24p. All I hear everyone talk about is 24p. So how important is it? I am planning to do documentary and short films... The Canon XH-A1 and Sony V1E are the camera's I am considering, as well as the Sony Z1E. I saw a picture with you and the Z1, so probarbly you know a lot about the camera. I just want to right gear, as I am spending like $5000 on hardware and another $ on software.

Which brings me to another point, how does Vegas differ from other NLE programs... I quickly looked at the demo and it looked quite different then lets say Adobe Production Studio or Avid Xpress Pro. As I am coming from Final Cut, and am switching to PC, I am free to choose a NLE program. Vegas is an option, but I do not have any idea what it is capable of, and how it compares.
Maybe you can help me as you are a certified trainer.

[Jerry Waters]

Why not download the trial version of Vegas? Get the manual. There is a lot built into Vegas that you have to buy as a plugin in Adobe. I bought Vegas after reading the forums for several months. I never saw any users stand up for their software like Vegas users do. The "software $" is low for what you get.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Floris van Eck

So Douglas, please explain me why I would or would not want 24p. All I hear everyone talk about is 24p. So how important is it? I am planning to do documentary and short films... The Canon XH-A1 and Sony V1E are the camera's I am considering, as well as the Sony Z1E. I saw a picture with you and the Z1, so probarbly you know a lot about the camera. I just want to right gear, as I am spending like $5000 on hardware and another $ on software.

24p is necessary if you want film cadence. If you only want a film "look" then 24p is discretionary. We use it on occasion; if you want to shoot 24p you need to practice your camera moves a lot. If you're shooting high action such as ball-based sports, martial arts, etc, 24p isn't suited for a lot of that kind of thing unless you're willing to up the shutter.
Most television commercials are 24p, most movies are 24p, but in broadcast, most of that 24p ends up in a 60i signal, contrary to popular belief. Only a handful of broadcasters are shipping a progressive signal, so it's a total myth that acquiring in 24p for standard HD broadcast is "better." It gets interlaced at some point or another in most cases.
24p is a tool, a functionary just like anything else. Some people are religious about having some particular filter on their camera at all times, others are seriously religious about "it has to be 24p." Both are ridiculous, IMO. They're tools. Nothing more. 24p is an overabused tool, but a good tool nonetheless.

Originally Posted by Floris van Eck

Which brings me to another point, how does Vegas differ from other NLE programs... I quickly looked at the demo and it looked quite different then lets say Adobe Production Studio or Avid Xpress Pro. As I am coming from Final Cut, and am switching to PC, I am free to choose a NLE program. Vegas is an option, but I do not have any idea what it is capable of, and how it compares.
Maybe you can help me as you are a certified trainer.

What makes Vegas different? It's a workflow. It's a multitrack audio, video editor that also has compositing and encoding built in. It requires no hardware and runs on most any PC with incredible stability.
Outside of media management, Vegas is superior in workflow from *my* perspective. I use Vegas, FCS, Edius, and occasionally Premiere. Avid Express HD is virtually always up and running on at least one station here, but I'm not a certified trainer for Avid (yet). IMO, Avid has the best media management, but doesn't have a sound package worth looking at. Same can be said for any NLE; no NLE remotely touches Vegas on that point.
Vegas is agnostic. Mix any resolution with any framerate with any media format on the same timeline. It does very respectable conversion of interlaced to progressive, does an incredibly respectful conversion of 60i to 24p, and has reasonably good media management. But it's a tool. All of the tools out there are very similar overall in what they can do. It's the fringe features that only you as an individual can decide if it is best/necessary for you.

[Floris van Eck]

Thanks for you response. I will definately take a look at Vegas. Can you tell me if there is a good book, with preferably a DVD with exercises? Maybe you have even written one of those books yourselves.

About the camera, I am still not sure. It will be one of the three camea's I mentioned. Does the V1 have the same features as the Z1, like the color correction tool, gamma curves, custom buttons etcetera?

[Bob Zimmerman]

I want to get this straight. If you use the V1 and record in 24P, you then can capture using 60i software, like FCE. No need for FCP?

If so does it still have that "film look" or does something else happen?

If I can do this I can hold off on buying FCP. I will at some point but I could wait.

Maybe I'm just getting mixed up on what was said,,,thanks

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Bob Zimmerman

I want to get this straight. If you use the V1 and record in 24P, you then can capture using 60i software, like FCE. No need for FCP?

If so does it still have that "film look" or does something else happen?

You can capture, edit, and export any V1 video with any NLE -- it's 1080/60i.

24p and 30p will have strobing and 24p will also have judder-frames. Were you to remove pulldown, the judder frames will be removed, but 24p will still have strobing.

If you feel strobing and judder makes your video have a"filmlook" and you want that look -- shoot either 24p or 30p. If you don't, just never switch on progressive.

Remember FCE only offers AIC and not native HDV editing. And, AIC and interlaced HDV don't go well together.

[Bob Zimmerman]

steve I take it you don't like 24P?

[Bob Zimmerman]

so in other camera's you record in 24p in have to edit in 24P. Or in 60i you edit in 60i. So in the V1 every setting you record in is edited in 60i?

[Lamar Lamb]

Floris,
Two and a half years ago I was just getting into video. I stumbled on the Vegas forum over at CamcorderInfo.com while trying to figure out what to buy for editing. After I asked about a dozen questions one of the moderators said "Just buy Vegas, I promise you won't be disappointed." So I did. He was right!!

I have tinkered with Premier some since having Vegas and was soooooo glad I didn't get that. Vegas was very easy to learn and can digest about any file type or format you feed it and spit out great video. It is great for handling audio. It's a super stable application. It's not a resource hog. It runs in the .NET framework. I do .NET programming myself and have to say Vegas is a very nice piece of work. Hats off to the developers.

I'll go out on a limb here and tell you to just buy Vegas 7 + DVD. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Originally Posted by Floris van Eck

Thanks for you response. I will definately take a look at Vegas. Can you tell me if there is a good book, with preferably a DVD with exercises? Maybe you have even written one of those books yourselves.

About the camera, I am still not sure. It will be one of the three camea's I mentioned. Does the V1 have the same features as the Z1, like the color correction tool, gamma curves, custom buttons etcetera?

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Bob Zimmerman

steve I take it you don't like 24P?

Japan is already introducing a new logo -- Full HD.

That means 1080/50p or 1080/60p camcorders, Bluray/HD-DVD, and 1080/50p or 1080/60p monitors. These products will arrive in 2007.

This will provide -- given a 50" to 72" flat-panel screen -- the "window into reality" that has been the goal from Day 1 of Hi-Vision. To achieve this requires both high spatial resolution and high temporal resolution.

Since this is the future of video -- and it is the look I've wanted since I first watched Hi-Vision in 1986 -- I'm not much interested in creating a video version of what film already does much better. (So I've no problem with 24fps movies.)

Right now I'm watching "Making of HD -- the Arctic" and I can't imagine wanting to see a ship in 90 knot winds in anything other than 60i, or even better, 60p.

A whole new generation is learning a new vision of "quality." Those claiming 24p gives them the look of "film quality" may be shocked to find that the audience has a whole new idea of what quality looks like.

The question that's open is -- can narrative productions be shot in anything other than 24p/25p? Because we don't know the answer -- it's important that camcorders offer the option. So I'm certainly not against 24p.

I am, however, surprised that there is so much focus on 24p when it's the least revolutionary aspect of the V1.