HVR-V1U: Sony unveils new 24P HDV camcorder

[Thanasis Grigoropoulos]

Originally Posted by Marvin Emms

While consumers are at the bottom of a slope and pretty much on the flat (there is very little left to remove from a camcorder and still have it function as one) and the pros are on a totally seperate flat way up high (there simply isn't anything to add nomatter how much money you throw until the technology improves), prosumers are perpetually clinging to a cliff face where one extra feature can mean spending as much as an entire consumer camera.

I think this is the best visual representation I have ever read for the definition of "prosumer"! I believe that there is also another factor to consider when discussing the "prosumer-awaiting-perfect-camera" issue: what is the use the "prosumer" will put this equipment to? And what is the potential return of this use? Is it an economic return? If yes, then the equation is simple: if the future projects can cover the cost of the purchase in a reasonable amount of time, then you buy. If not, then you go for a cheaper model. If there is no cheaper model that can deliver the projects (highly unlikely in the current market state), then you have what is called a "barrier to entry" in this market and you are in trouble...

But.

What if the expected return from the use of the camera is not an economic one? What if the expected return is simply... artistic expression? What if you work in the morning as a salesman and dream of shooting dramas in the evening? (if you don't work in the evenings as well...). In this case, the camera will probably never pay back it's money. Sure it will pay back a lot more, but not the money. Or if it does, you cannot count on it. And this money may well be your vacations money, or your child's school money. And, since it will not pay back, it is simply... expensive!

I write all these because I know the feeling. I have been there. Now I have the convenience to go out in the market and buy basically whatever suits my needs. But this is not where I started. And in my view, things would have been much faster for me, if prices were lower at my debut.

Now, some examples on the low end of the "curve":
Sony throws HC1 in the market. The "consumer" HDV market is not open yet. So, Sony plays it smart and throws a VERY GOOD MACHINE for it's money. But it is not just very good in image quality. It also has a mic-jack! And a focus ring! And headphones-jack! Why? Consumers don't need all these. But Sony needs to open the market and knows that consumers don't have an opinion. They rather do a quick search on the net and read the forums. "Prosumers" WRITE in forums! Therefore, consumers read what "prosumers" write. Consumers speak with a knowledgeable employee who sells cameras (probably the same fellow I was talking about before). He most probably cannot afford to buy an FX1 but he is now saving for an HC1. Easy. Give the "low-prosumers" what they want and they will advertise it to the consumers!

And what happens next? Well, next you get HC3! No mic-jack, no headphones jack, no focus ring. But hey! My cousin bought this small sony and its HD and it's awesome! I am going to buy one as well. I bought the NEXT model. So, it's better than his, no? "Low-prosumers" are not needed anymore. The market is now open. Let's charge them more, now! Say hello to HVR-A1...

Canon HV10. Same digital signal processor as H1!!! Plays back 24f!!! Does it record it? No! Of' course not. Why not? It's the same processor! Does Canon honestly believe that any serious professional would choose the HV10 over an A1? No, of' course not. But then, how could they introduce their next $2.500 - $3.000 camcorder with 24f, focus ring, mic jack, headphones jack and no xlr's? Would it be cost-prohibitive for HV10 to be this camcorder? Certainly not! Sony has proven this with HC1. So?

So, IMHO the "low-end-prosumers" are the ones to be constantly left unsatisfied. They are the only ones in the market pushed to extend beyond their budget to satisfy their needs. That's why they got into the happit of waiting. Professional event videographers (to name one $4.000 to $5.000 category) are the best ones served! They get what they need in a price they are more than willing to pay. In order for this to happen, "low-end-prosumers" have to pay! Because if they don't, then the event videographers will definitely get angry. Who likes to know that he is paying $3.000 or $4.000 more for a similar product with a different, more professional look?

I don't remember where it was but I read some time ago about the idea of being able to "custom build" your camera. Like with PC's. Order the parts that you need, pay for each part separately and assemble it. Or have it assembled for you. I thought this is a really innovative idea! It's hard to imagine how it would be possible but then, I guess Red was hard to imagine some years ago... But, if this was to become reality, then the companies would start to antagonise on the parts prices. Not a very nice scenario for them, since this would enable more players to enter the market. Smaller companies that specialise in CCDs for example, or lenses or lcds etc. This would definitely drop the prices and the truth would be revealed. (Btw, I don’t know if this would be technically possible at all. But it certainly gives a good example of what I am trying to say…)

I think after all this, a re-definition of "prosumer" is necessary. I would say that a “prosumer” is the person who needs a lot of professional features but will probably never have an economic return in his camera investment. Everybody else above him/her is a professional.

Again another long post! And this time, we are definitely in a very different topic and I really do not know what is the common practice and whether I should have posted this here or not. Please tell me if I am doing something wrong :)

Thanks for reading,

Thanasis

[Paulo Teixeira]

Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira

I’m still hoping Panasonic shows us something before Christmas because so many people including myself will have bought either the XH-G1 or the Vlu and it will be a little too late if they waited until after Christmas.

Camcorder choices are getting harder these days and obviously Panasonic is not going to release a Professional AVCHD camcorder although I still would like to see a consumer version to compete against the Sony’s SR1 camcorder this year. People are basically stuck with choosing either the Sony HVR-V1 or the Canon XH-G1 as an affordable camcorder and I’ll skip the others because it’s in a higher price range.

At least in my case I wouldn’t have to worry about editing 24 P/f since I would never use that feature on a camcorder anyway.

[Don Donatello]

i have to admit my brain can't take these models with all these new camera letter names ! ( happens when you go past 50 )
i use to be able to follow sony's names ..PD150 , PD170 , 2000 , 2100 so i could just refer to them as sony -150 , 170 , 1000, 2100 ..

wouldn't a name ( and maybe a number.. cineAlta 900 ) be easier then HVR-V1U , HDR-FX7 ...
same with canon .. GL1 , GL2 , XL1, XL2 was easy to follow ... now the new ones are just too many letters ...

[Chris Barcellos]

I brought this up in another thread about a review, but I wonder how others feel about it. Assuming there is a button access panel underneath it like the VX and FX1 I have, I am happy Sony went back to side mount of LCD. With the top mount as on FX1, you had to be over the camera to read the button decriptions. With the mounting on the side panel, you can have the camera on a high tripod, but still read and access those buttons. In addition, with my ME66 mic, I have to swing mic away to open and close the LCD.

Anybody else ?

[Boyd Ostroff]

Personally I think the handle mounted LCD screen was a great innovation of the Z1/FX1. I much prefer that location to the side screen on my VX-2000 and PDX-10. I rarely use the viewfinder on my camera, and the LCD screen seems to be in a great position to use, even with a relatively high tripod that I use to shoot performances. I don't have much problem with the buttons on top; you just have to know where they are by feel regardless of where they are... can't see them in the dark while shooting.

But aside from all this, it allows the tape door to be on the left where it belongs. I can change tapes much more quickly on my Z1, and I'm not always getting caught up with the grip strap.

But as the designer of both the Z1 and V1 explained to Michael Wisenski and me, a handle mounted LCD would have been too wide for the V1 and would have also affected the balance.

[Tim Le]

I'm just happy it's somewhat smaller and lighter. The PD150 series was a reasonable size. When I saw the FX1 at Fry's, I thought my god, this thing is huge. The HVX is also huge.

My only gripe so far is I wish the lens was wider. 37.5mm equivalent on the wide end just isn't wide enough. 32mm would have been better. 28mm would have been awesome.

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Tim N Le

My only gripe so far is I wish the lens was wider. 37.5mm equivalent on the wide end just isn't wide enough. 32mm would have been better. 28mm would have been awesome.

I think its easier and more forgiving to add a wide angle adapter, than to add at the other end. So I don't have a problem with that.

[Tim Le]

Well clearly everyone has different requirements. I don't like having to use an adapter if I can help it. They add weight (especially zoom-through wide converters) and you're adding optical elements so there has to be some lost in quality. Also, flare can be a bigger problem.

And given that the camera is targeted towards filmmakers, event videographers, and probably reality TV production, a wider lens is more useful in those genres. I notice most reality shows with ENG cameras have wide zooms from Canon or Fujinon on them. This camera already has a 20X zoom on it so a few extra millimeters on the wide end wouldn't have hurt. Oh well, I guess we just have to live with it but this camera is soooo close to meeting all my requirements.

[Paulo Teixeira]

I know this camcorder has a wonderful 1.5X digital extender for the zoom to make it 30X but I would still like to know if their will be a 1.6X/1.8X or even a 2X telephoto adapter. Just imagine the reach and clarity you would get with 60X by using a tripod.

[Boyd Ostroff]

I'd think you could use a stepdown adaptor with the 72mm Century 1.6x - or maybe they will make a new bayonet mount for the V1? The cool thing about that would be, you'd get more zoom through capability than 1.6x allows on the Z1.

OTOH, I doubt there will be a lot of demand for tele adaptors for this camera...

[Stuart Mannion]

I seems to me that the V1 may be almost the perfect camera for low-budget cinema if you added a 35mm lens adapter. The 1/4" chips wouldn't matter then, only it's sensitivity to light. Pair this puppy up with a M2 or letus35 and you'd have an awesome compact, cheap cinema camera. What do you think?

[Eric Gorski]

i think the v1 could be pretty damn amazing with a lens adapter.. if it really does have a higher dynamic range then normal video and the super slow-motion feature works well, then my two major problems with digital video could be eliminated :)

..have to wait and see footage from the finished product.

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Stuart Mannion

I seems to me that the V1 may be almost the perfect camera for low-budget cinema if you added a 35mm lens adapter. The 1/4" chips wouldn't matter then, only it's sensitivity to light. Pair this puppy up with a M2 or letus35 and you'd have an awesome compact, cheap cinema camera. What do you think?

Chuck the 35mm adapter and shoot with zoom from across the street. Check out footage showing zoom range in footage posted by DSE:

http://www.vasst.com

[Mark Fry]

Originally Posted by Tim N Le

My only gripe so far is I wish the lens was wider. 37.5mm equivalent on the wide end just isn't wide enough. 32mm would have been better. 28mm would have been awesome.

Yes, that is a little surprising, especially given that the 1.5x digital zoom feature is reported to be good enough for general use. Personnally, I'm very pleased with the lens range Sony have chosen, since I like to count the rivets on a locomotive's tender from 500 yards without adding a tele-converter, ( :-) ) but I realise that wide-angle is quite high on many people's priority-list.

[Brian S. Nelson]

Will the V1U have a ‘nightshot’ mode? I know this is somewhat of an esoteric feature but I’d like to capture footage of owls with an external infrared light source. If so, will the slow motion mode still work? Slow motion footage of the owls at night would be really cool.