New version of the FX1

[Heath McKnight]

I don't think the V1 is a step up from the A1 or a step-down from the Z1. It's a completely different camera altogether, while still having some similarities.

heath

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

None of the HDV camcorders have a built in hard drive. If they did, it wouldn't be HDV by definition alone. It would be a 25Mbps camcorder that uses the MPEG 2 compression scheme, but by trademark and format definition, couldn't be HDV.

We know that, but since Sony will have a harddisk drive that attaches to their "HDV" camcorder -- clearly "HDV" can be recorded to disk. Unless Sony are going to say "connect your HDV camcorder to your Sony 'not-HDV' harddisk so you can record hours of 'not-hdv'."

Sony and JVC can change the definition of HDV -- as they have already for 24p -- when they want to. Or they can refine the meaning to "ANY camcorder labeled HDV must be able to record to tape. But, 'HDV' the data stream can be recorded to other media."

Sony would be a fool to kill the term HDV so soon -- and I don't think folks are going to warm to "M2T" camcorders.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Alright Steve, just to play the game of semantics...
Of course you're right, the HDV spec can be changed, and already has been (twice) so for the time being, by the current definition of the HDV specification and stipulated definition, HDV cannot be recorded internally to any storage medium but tape.
Will this change? Probably. I'll be surprised if it doesn't. But for the time being, the definition of the format is what it currently is and manufacturers must adhere to it if they wish to continue to put the trademarked HDV logo on the tape-based camcorder or related tape-based device.
This is also why one well known manufacturer recently received notice for trademark violation, not using the logo for, but the name "HDV" on a non-tape-based product.

[Chris Hurd]

For what it's worth, the new Sony hard disk recorder HVR-DR60 is not branded with the trademarked HDV logo. Its markings say "for HDV / DVCAM / DV" but there's no HDV logo. Instead it carries the HDD logo. No doubt there's some provision somewhere that states "only devices containing a hard disk recorder may carry the HDD logo." Just a guess, but I'm willing to bet a case of Shiner on it.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

For what it's worth, the new Sony hard disk recorder HVR-DR60 is not branded with the trademarked HDV logo. Its markings say "for HDV / DVCAM / DV" but there's no HDV logo. Instead it carries the HDD logo. No doubt there's some provision somewhere that states "only devices containing a hard disk recorder may carry the HDD logo." Just a guess, but I'm willing to bet a case of Shiner on it.

I'm not taking that bet, cuz you're absolutely correct.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Alright Steve, just to play the game of semantics...But for the time being, the definition of the format is what it currently is and manufacturers must adhere to it if they wish to continue to put the trademarked HDV logo on the tape-based camcorder or related tape-based device.

There's no semantics involved.

(1) The camcorder has no internal disk.

(2) The separate HDD unit will record "the data stream" sent from a Sony HDV camcorder via a FireWire.

My original post was that contrary to a post that the camcorder HAD a 60GB drive -- I said it didn't BECAUSE the HDD was announced as a seperate product. I never said why. I never said one word about HDV "definitions." Nothing. Nada.

You are the one who then posted about the definition of "HDV" which we all know. But, as you agree, the definition could have been changed so the poster who said the camcorder had a HDD could have been correct. That's exactly WHY I gave NO reason for it not having a HDD.

My second post was equally simple -- Sony's HDD will record from the camera. In the manual it will have to say, in some way, that it records both "DV" and "HDV." I really don't know or care if Sony decides to call it M2T or MPEG-2. It records HDV. In this post I never said one word about HDV "logos."

Now you are posting about logos which we also all know -- thus taking my two simple points even further OT. Time to drop this "discussion" of definitions and logos.

-------------------------
Steve Mullen
www.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

[Heath McKnight]

I'm going to throw in my two cents not as tech junkie or a wrangler here at DVInfo, but instead as a filmmaker. I don't care if there are arguments over the name and meaning of HDV or whatnot. What I care about is, what can HDV do for me as a filmmaker? That's important. We need to remember that at the end of the day, it's about what we can do with our talents and the camera.

I've seen some amazing stuff done on a GL1 or a Sony A1, and some crappy stuff done on an XL H1 or an F900. It's what my and my DP's strengths are with a camera, and understanding how it works. We can't lose sight of that.

heath

[Bob Zimmerman]

I don't really care what it does on the inside as long as it is done right and it looks good.

[Heath McKnight]

Bob is right, but I always say, if one doesn't have skills, no camera in the world will make that person look pretty!

h

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Sony and JVC can change the definition of HDV -- as they have already for 24p -- when they want to. Or they can refine the meaning to "ANY camcorder labeled HDV must be able to record to tape. ]

This is what I was referring to. Yes, they can change the format. but the disk drive is basically a "not HDV product drive that records HDV." It isn't an HDV product. And as mentioned, the camera cannot have a built in hard drive without tape and still carry the HDV trademark unless the protocol for the format is changed.

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

I'm not sure either has a "built-in 60GB drive"

Maybe I'm misreading your now-edited post, but it appeared to me you were suggesting that Sony (or anyone else) could put an HDD in their HDV camcorder and still call it HDV.
Apparently we're agreeing, but for some reason you're not seeing that. Apologies if I'm missing your point. As you point out, I guess some of us just have less-than-simple minds, since I missed the "simple" points.

[Bob Zimmerman]

I thought I read that it had a 60gb external non removable hardrive. Maybe not.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Bob Zimmerman

I thought I read that it had a 60gb external non removable hardrive. Maybe not.

bob, you're partially correct. There is an external 60GB HDD available for the cam, but it's removeable, and is optional, doesn't come with the camcorder. Additionally, it works on any camcorder. Wait'll Sony makes more info available, you'll find a few other surprises.

[Heath McKnight]

Doing a direct link seems to not work, but surf through www.sonybiz.net until you find the HDV pro page and you'll see the drive. It mounts to the handle, etc., of the HDV cameras (and DV, DVCam, too). This link may work:

http://www.sonybiz.net/cgi-bin/bvisa...gcfkmcfjfdhl.0

heath

[Heath McKnight]

I think one 60gb drive is better than those P2 cards.

heath

[Bob Zimmerman]

It was early on. Either I read it wrong or it was posted wrong. I could never find it again. Thanks for clearing it up.