25p at DVinfo.net

Anthony Dean · February 25th, 2009, 06:03 PM

Can anyone give me some advice about shooting in 25p on the V1. I've had the cam for about a year and have had no problems shooting 50i @ 1/50 or 1/25 but can't seem to work out how to shoot in 25p mode without experiencing the sort of inter frame stuttering on any movement/pan which I find unacceptable.

Any clues?

T

Greg Laves · February 25th, 2009, 06:42 PM

From what I understand, that is exactly what you are going to get when shooting 25p (or 24p in the US). I have read comments that you can learn how to shoot properly to avoid having those issues. I am not a fan of 24/25p myself, for that reason. I saw a demonstration video one time where a shooter was showing off his new steadycam, but he shot it in 24p. It stuttered and jerked all over the place. It definitely wasn't a good demonstration of steadycam's capabilities.

Leslie Wand · February 25th, 2009, 07:21 PM

there seems to be some obsession with 25p 'emulating' a 'film' look. i've tried a few shoots in 25p, but all of which were '25p' friendly; interviews, locked-off outdoor stuff, etc.,

my conclusion was pretty straight forward. why bother?

i can shoot whatever in 50i and if i need progressive, render out to it.

i have yet to see a decent pan in 25p

leslie

Adam Gold · February 25th, 2009, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Dean

can't seem to work out how to shoot in 25p mode without experiencing the sort of inter frame stuttering on any movement/pan which I find unacceptable.

Um, that's how it's *supposed* to look. That's why people use that mode. It's copying the worst aspects of film, which is apparently what some people like about it.

Anthony Dean · March 10th, 2009, 06:31 AM

Thanks for confirming my thoughts. I'll stick with my 50i thanks!

Why is Sony's flavour of progressive HDV such an arsehole?

I produce a lot of web based video content and thought that a 25p Camera would be perfect for my needs.... a full resolution Progressive 1080x1440 image. Which it is...... but it seems impossible to shoot anything with ANY movement in the frame+ it looks like shit!

Gary Nattrass · March 10th, 2009, 07:09 AM

I never shoot 25p i always go 1080i 50i in the camera at a shutter speed of 100 and then output from FCP at pro res 1080i 25p. It seems to be more stable that way and you dont get the smeary 25p pictures that come from doing it in the camera.

Adam Gold · March 10th, 2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Dean

Thanks for confirming my thoughts. I'll stick with my 50i thanks!

Why is Sony's flavour of progressive HDV such an arsehole?

I produce a lot of web based video content and thought that a 25p Camera would be perfect for my needs.... a full resolution Progressive 1080x1440 image. Which it is...... but it seems impossible to shoot anything with ANY movement in the frame+ it looks like shit!

Sony's no different than anyone else -- all progressive at very low frame rates will look that way.

You should consider a cam that does 720p60, like the one below from JVC.

JVC | GY-HD200U Professional HDV Camcorder Kit | GY-HD200CL17

Anthony Dean · March 24th, 2009, 07:03 AM

Thanks Adam,

So my V1 is close to useless for progressive acquisition!

Anyone want to buy a pre-loved Sony HVR V1?

Adam Gold · March 24th, 2009, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Dean

So my V1 is close to useless for progressive acquisition!

I'm not sure how you could get to that conclusion based on what everyone here has written. Progressive is what it is, and one brand isn't any different than another at the same frame rate.

What is it you are trying to accomplish, and why must it be progressive? Most people who think they need progressive have just heard somewhere that it's better, but don't really know anything about it and are disappointed when they finally try it.

Anthony Dean · March 26th, 2009, 10:29 PM

Adam,

Perhaps I'm Ill informed!

I want to shoot in HDV for web. Without the need for deinterlacing in post and without having to censor the way that I shoot in order to avoid the nasty results I seem to be getting when shooting 108025p on my V1.

Is the solution simply a more expensive camera with ability to shoot at a higher frame rate? 50p?

Is it the cmos sensors that are the problem?

or is Prosumer HDV simply not a format suited to progressive acquisition?

Is a progressive image always 'softer' than an interlaced image?

Am I barking up the wrong tree?

T

Adam Gold · March 26th, 2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Dean

I want to shoot in HDV for web. Without the need for deinterlacing in post and without having to censor the way that I shoot in order to avoid the nasty results I seem to be getting when shooting 108025p on my V1.

You can't have both. You will have to deal with one or the other. I don't need any progressive delivery, but according to those who do and whom I trust, your best bet is shooting 50i and deinterlacing upon export.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Dean

Is the solution simply a more expensive camera with ability to shoot at a higher frame rate? 50p?

Sort of. There is no 50p at 1080. There are plenty of cams that do 720/50p, like the Sony EX1 and EX3, as well as the one I linked to above. All of which are pretty pricey. But then there are cheap little crappy $200 Aipteks which also do 720/60p (and, I assume, 50p where you are).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Dean

Is it the cmos sensors that are the problem?

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Dean

or is Prosumer HDV simply not a format suited to progressive acquisition?

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Dean

Is a progressive image always 'softer' than an interlaced image?

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Dean

Am I barking up the wrong tree?

Yes.

Stephan Stryhanyn · March 27th, 2009, 04:41 PM

Wrongly titled thread, I assume - is your problem with 25p or with shooting for the Web?

Anthony, you failed to realize that consumer computer displays (i.e. those that will display contents for the Web) are mostly (if not all) sync'ed @ 60Hz, and there's no way you can display 25p on 60Hz displays without sacrificing either motion (quote - "stuttering on any movement/pan which I find unacceptable") or resolution (frame blending to convert frame rates).

There are actually 2 distinct reasons for the judder:
- Shooting 25p, or 24p, or 30p (low temporal resolution),
- Much more severe one: shooting 25p or 24p for 60Hz displays (e.g. computer displays or NTSC SD) with 3:2 pulldown (6Hz judder or similar).

If your target is the Web, the problem does not lie in "Sony's flavour of progressive HDV", but in the PAL region where you are (we are) living. Two options for you:
1) Shoot 50i. The higher field rate gives you reasonable chances to downsample to 30p with okay quality. A bit blurry due to the conversion, but acceptable at YouTube/Vimeo player sizes.
2) Get another camcorder from the US, or an EX1 and such, and shoot 60i (or 30p if available). Well, it's not really 60i and 30p but rather 59.94 and 29.97. A few inconsequential percents compared to your 25p/50i problem.

Once that's done, get ready for another quest as you will run into other issues like codec / bandwidth settings, and whether the Internet browser is able to play Flash video fluidly - Firefox seems much more comfortable at this than IE. Another story though, and a few more trees to bark at.

Leslie Wand · March 27th, 2009, 09:29 PM

anthony - what EXACTLY do you want to produce for the web?

why are you so obsessed with 25p?

i've been using a v1p since it came out - very profitably indeed. i always shoot 50i and then produce whatever is required thereafter, with clean pans, no motion artefacts, etc.,.

to shoot in progressive, is in my opinion a total waste of time now that you have such sophisticated nle's that in most cases will cleanly convert your 50i into anything you could possibly want....

as was suggested, if you're so keen on 25p, get a camera that is dedicated to progressive shooting - and good luck with with your pans, tracking shots, etc.,

leslie

Ken Campbell · March 31st, 2009, 05:24 AM

I mainly produce video for the web and prefer to shoot 25p instead of interlaced. I seem to get more detail and sharper images with progressive. I also tend to shoot in a studio and never move the camera or subject very fast. For anything with fast motion I would instantly switch to interlaced.

Anthony Dean · April 1st, 2009, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Campbell

I mainly produce video for the web and prefer to shoot 25p instead of interlaced. I seem to get more detail and sharper images with progressive. I also tend to shoot in a studio and never move the camera or subject very fast. For anything with fast motion I would instantly switch to interlaced.

- this confirms my suspicions that 25p is just no good at capturing med-fast motion when shooting..... it's just not a high enough frame rate to be useful for anything other than talking heads in a studio??

February 25th, 2009, 06:03 PM	#1
Anthony Dean New Boot Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 7	25p Can anyone give me some advice about shooting in 25p on the V1. I've had the cam for about a year and have had no problems shooting 50i @ 1/50 or 1/25 but can't seem to work out how to shoot in 25p mode without experiencing the sort of inter frame stuttering on any movement/pan which I find unacceptable. Any clues? T

March 10th, 2009, 07:09 AM	#6
Gary Nattrass Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cornsay Durham UK Posts: 1,992	I never shoot 25p i always go 1080i 50i in the camera at a shutter speed of 100 and then output from FCP at pro res 1080i 25p. It seems to be more stable that way and you dont get the smeary 25p pictures that come from doing it in the camera. __________________ Over 15 minutes in Broadcast Film and TV production: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1044352/

March 27th, 2009, 04:41 PM	#12
Stephan Stryhanyn Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: France Posts: 48	Wrongly titled thread, I assume - is your problem with 25p or with shooting for the Web? Anthony, you failed to realize that consumer computer displays (i.e. those that will display contents for the Web) are mostly (if not all) sync'ed @ 60Hz, and there's no way you can display 25p on 60Hz displays without sacrificing either motion (quote - "stuttering on any movement/pan which I find unacceptable") or resolution (frame blending to convert frame rates). There are actually 2 distinct reasons for the judder: - Shooting 25p, or 24p, or 30p (low temporal resolution), - Much more severe one: shooting 25p or 24p for 60Hz displays (e.g. computer displays or NTSC SD) with 3:2 pulldown (6Hz judder or similar). If your target is the Web, the problem does not lie in "Sony's flavour of progressive HDV", but in the PAL region where you are (we are) living. Two options for you: 1) Shoot 50i. The higher field rate gives you reasonable chances to downsample to 30p with okay quality. A bit blurry due to the conversion, but acceptable at YouTube/Vimeo player sizes. 2) Get another camcorder from the US, or an EX1 and such, and shoot 60i (or 30p if available). Well, it's not really 60i and 30p but rather 59.94 and 29.97. A few inconsequential percents compared to your 25p/50i problem. Once that's done, get ready for another quest as you will run into other issues like codec / bandwidth settings, and whether the Internet browser is able to play Flash video fluidly - Firefox seems much more comfortable at this than IE. Another story though, and a few more trees to bark at. Last edited by Stephan Stryhanyn; March 28th, 2009 at 02:20 AM. Reason: typo

February 25th, 2009, 06:42 PM	#2
Greg Laves Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Corpus Christi, TX Posts: 640	From what I understand, that is exactly what you are going to get when shooting 25p (or 24p in the US). I have read comments that you can learn how to shoot properly to avoid having those issues. I am not a fan of 24/25p myself, for that reason. I saw a demonstration video one time where a shooter was showing off his new steadycam, but he shot it in 24p. It stuttered and jerked all over the place. It definitely wasn't a good demonstration of steadycam's capabilities.

February 25th, 2009, 07:21 PM	#3
Leslie Wand Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: upper hunter, australia Posts: 1,410	there seems to be some obsession with 25p 'emulating' a 'film' look. i've tried a few shoots in 25p, but all of which were '25p' friendly; interviews, locked-off outdoor stuff, etc., my conclusion was pretty straight forward. why bother? i can shoot whatever in 50i and if i need progressive, render out to it. i have yet to see a decent pan in 25p leslie

March 10th, 2009, 06:31 AM	#5
Anthony Dean New Boot Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 7	Thanks for confirming my thoughts. I'll stick with my 50i thanks! Why is Sony's flavour of progressive HDV such an arsehole? I produce a lot of web based video content and thought that a 25p Camera would be perfect for my needs.... a full resolution Progressive 1080x1440 image. Which it is...... but it seems impossible to shoot anything with ANY movement in the frame+ it looks like shit!

March 24th, 2009, 07:03 AM	#8
Anthony Dean New Boot Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 7	Thanks Adam, So my V1 is close to useless for progressive acquisition! Anyone want to buy a pre-loved Sony HVR V1?

March 26th, 2009, 10:29 PM	#10
Anthony Dean New Boot Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 7	Adam, Perhaps I'm Ill informed! I want to shoot in HDV for web. Without the need for deinterlacing in post and without having to censor the way that I shoot in order to avoid the nasty results I seem to be getting when shooting 108025p on my V1. Is the solution simply a more expensive camera with ability to shoot at a higher frame rate? 50p? Is it the cmos sensors that are the problem? or is Prosumer HDV simply not a format suited to progressive acquisition? Is a progressive image always 'softer' than an interlaced image? Am I barking up the wrong tree? T

March 27th, 2009, 09:29 PM	#13
Leslie Wand Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: upper hunter, australia Posts: 1,410	anthony - what EXACTLY do you want to produce for the web? why are you so obsessed with 25p? i've been using a v1p since it came out - very profitably indeed. i always shoot 50i and then produce whatever is required thereafter, with clean pans, no motion artefacts, etc.,. to shoot in progressive, is in my opinion a total waste of time now that you have such sophisticated nle's that in most cases will cleanly convert your 50i into anything you could possibly want.... as was suggested, if you're so keen on 25p, get a camera that is dedicated to progressive shooting - and good luck with with your pans, tracking shots, etc., leslie

March 31st, 2009, 05:24 AM	#14
Ken Campbell Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 140	I mainly produce video for the web and prefer to shoot 25p instead of interlaced. I seem to get more detail and sharper images with progressive. I also tend to shoot in a studio and never move the camera or subject very fast. For anything with fast motion I would instantly switch to interlaced.