V1U/Aliasing at DVinfo.net

Katie Mims · October 15th, 2008, 10:03 PM

Hi All,

I know there is TONS of information out there on workflows for the V1U and FCS2, but I've read so much of it at this point and heard so many different points of view that I'm just at a loss now:-(

I have a project I shot on the V1U, 24p, Cinema Picture Profile.

I'm editing with FCS2 6.0.4, on a MacPro 2x3 Dual Core with 4GB memory and a HD Cinema Display.

I captured in FCS 6.0.4 with these settings:
Sequence: HDV - 1080i60
Capture: HDV
Device Control: HDV Firewire

I know from looking at my footage (which unfortunately I've already edited...don't ask my why I went ahead and did this, knowing it looked crummy) that these are the wrong settings.

From reading this: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-hvr-...cp-6-02-a.html

It's my understanding that the proper workflow is:
24p/60i on tape: Capture to the 24p Apple Intermediate Codec or Apple ProRes 422 codec, then output to the HVR-V1 camcorder in 24p/60i mode.

So, I have two questions.
1. Will the workflow above work properly and give me footage without the aliasing?

2. Which is best, AIC or ProRes?

3. Obviously I need to re-capture. Is there a way to do a batch capture only using clips used in my current timeline, so that everything automatically matches to what I've edited with the new footage, or do I have to start over from scratch?

ANY help/advice is much appreciated.

Katie

Katie Mims · October 16th, 2008, 12:32 PM

Hi all,

Just to make sure I haven't lost my mind, I went back and looked at my footage clips in QuickTime, just to make sure I was right, but the artifacts are still there. It looks like a combination of interlacing and aliasing.

I definitely shot in 24p, NOT 24pA. No question there.

When I click through the frames, I end up with three frames that look good like this: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3049/...6cdf5085_o.jpg

And two that look like this: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3208/...330318ff_o.jpg

When I look at everything edited in FCS, it looks absolutely horrible. Infinitely worse than what is pictured in the photo above. I tried multiple sequence settings, and I can't seem to find anything that looks right.

Ideas? What have I done wrong somewhere along the way?

What settings do other V1U users use?

Thanks,
Katie

Justin Zimmerman · October 16th, 2008, 01:31 PM

i tend to use 30P

...saves a lot of headaches later and unless i'm exporting to film, i like the look as it tends to mix the best of the video and film world in a unique way. i import and edit with the Pro Res CODEC. while this increases file size, it streamlines the process and helps tremendously!

here's an example of a project using this workflow on YouTube. do yourself a favor and watch in High Quality:

YouTube - Compassionate Eye Foundation / Getty Images 2008 Summer Solstice Shoot

in any event, here's a nice and simple workflow explanation for you that will hopefully help out:

Capturing HDV Into ProRes Via FireWire

24p explanation:

24p In Final CDut Pro HD

and best of all, exporting from HDV to DVD explanations:

Exporting HDV Video from the Timeline to Standard Definition DVD

good luck!

Katie Mims · October 16th, 2008, 01:48 PM

Justin,

Thanks! That's very helpful. I'll have to do a few tests for future shoots.

But in the meantime, I have to fix the project I'm working on right now. Any idea as to how I can go about that?

My original footage looks much better in Quicktime than it does in FCP, despite the gross frame every three frames that I mentioned above. Still not great, but better than in FCP. I'm sure it's a setting somewhere, I just can't seem to find out what setting it is.

Am I going to need to re-capture as ProRes? If so, what is the best way to do this so that I don't have to re-edit everything, and capture more than what I'm using in the timeline?

Hugh Mobley · October 16th, 2008, 07:59 PM

try shooting 60i and editing progressive, that works for me most of the time. I edit 30p and use cineform to capture and deinterlace, you might also read all you can on the cmos chip because you are dealing with skew, wobble, rolling shutter, I believe shutter speed is crital when shooting 24p, and there can't be much talent movement w/o blur and cam must be on a tripod, I am still trying to figure out how they do it on "No Reservations" thet shoot, I think 30p, Sony says the V1 is 24/30p but its 60i coming from the film until you remove pulldown, and if its going back to tv or dvd it will go back to 60i either in dvda or the tv. if you can look at your footage thru an hdmi cable on a hd tv, it might shock you how good it is

Lee Berger · October 17th, 2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katie Mims

I definitely shot in 24p, NOT 24pA. No question there.

Hi Katie:
I believe your problems stems from not shooting in 24pA. No matter what codec you capture to you will still have 3:2 pull down in the footage. That's why three frames look good and two don't. The first three have the same image in both fields and the following two are composed of two different image fields. The V1U records the pull down sequence with all of its progressive modes. That makes it easy to play it back on an interlaced monitor expecting 29.97 frames/second. The trick is removing the pull down for a true progressive sequence. When you shoot in 24 PA it's simple to remove the pull down when capturing to ProRes via firewire. Here's a link to Andrew Balis' tutorial and easy setups

Capturing HDV Into ProRes Via FireWire | Moviola ? Training for Avid, Apple & Adobe | Production & Post Production Rentals & Sales | Los Angeles, Hollywood, Burbank

Since you shot in the 24p mode you'll have to use Cinema Tools or Compressor to remove the pulldown from each clip. Philip Hodgetts' HD Survival Handbook gives a good explanation on Page 171. It's worth getting Instant Expert! The HD Survival Handbook

Finally I did a 24pA test two weekends ago I captured into FCP using one of the Andrew Balis' easy setups and it worked great. Here is a link. Notice that as you step through the file every frame is clean and none contain more than one filed.

Index of /temp

Justin Zimmerman · October 17th, 2008, 07:42 PM

so, what we're saying is...

use Compressor to get a decent "offline" copy if possible (but i'm guessing not)

create an EDL

and re import using the Pro Res CODEC for your "online!"

Lee Berger · October 18th, 2008, 04:08 AM

It's not an off line on line issue. As I understand it you capture and then remove the pulldown. I don't believe this creates any additional compression to the captured media, but it does create more media. I admit that I haven't tried this workflow, using Compressor or Cinema Tools, because I shot in the 24pA mode. According to Phillip Hodgetts in his HD Survival Handbook:

On the Sony V1U, Z7, Z270, EX-1, EX-3 check that you are recording in 24A mode. This is not Advanced Pulldown but instead ensures that each new recording will start a new GOP with the correct Timecode sequence so that the 3:2 pulldown can be removed in a batch process. Without this we have to manually set the pulldown cadence for each captured clip, before running it through Cinema Tools because Cinema Tools expects the A frame of the pulldown sequence to always start on a 0 or 5 frame Timecode. That is 00:00:12:00 and
00:00:12:05, 00:00:12:10, 00:00:12:15 etc.

Also:

When capturing, Apple presents the choice to capture to the native codec or to convert to ProRes 422 on capture. Because Cinema Tools requires an all I-frame codec to work, meaning HDV and XDCAM HD won’t work in native format, converting to ProRes 422 on capture is definitely recommended.
Compressor can Reverse Telecine HDV and XDCAM HD but it will take a much longer time than from all-I-frame footage, as each frame needs to be constructed from 15 frames, before it can be determined which frames need pulldown removed and which do not. This is very computationally intensive. It is much more efficient to convert on capture.

In my test case I didn't have to do anything post capture because I used Balis' 24pA to ProRes preset and 3:2 pulldown is removed during the capture by FCP.

Finally, I usually shoot in 60i because my products also go out on NTSC DVD. I encoded my 24pA test to DVD to see how it would look when the player adds back the pulldown. I was not too pleased as it was too jittery on movement. It looked great on my 23" Apple Cinema Display.

Justin Zimmerman · October 19th, 2008, 11:36 PM

i used quotes around online and offline for a reason...

in other words, use the poorly imported cut as an "offline" version - ie a rough cut...

get her edit decision list together...

then reimport the footage following the links i provided above for Pro Res...

which i was calling her "online" version...

instead of trying to take the poorly imported version and trying to use Compressor to make it right.

and i've never had a problem with 24P or 30P when using the Pro Res CODEC in Final Cut Pro Studio 2.

Katie Mims · October 20th, 2008, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Berger

Hi Katie:
Since you shot in the 24p mode you'll have to use Cinema Tools or Compressor to remove the pulldown from each clip.
Index of /temp

It's been my understanding that with the latest version of FCS, this isn't necessary. I've gone back and looked at my footage, and while the pulldown is in my raw footage, it is being properly removed in my timeline.

But the footage still looks like crap. There's aliasing and possibly some pixilation. I've tried capturing some test clips and whatnot, and still haven't been able to figure out where the problem is in my workflow.

Katie Mims · October 20th, 2008, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Zimmerman

...then reimport the footage following the links i provided above for Pro Res...

and i've never had a problem with 24P or 30P when using the Pro Res CODEC in Final Cut Pro Studio 2.

I'm not very familiar with the process of online/offline. Is it as simple as reimporting the clips used in my final edit through a batch capture? Can you direct me towards some links on how to do that?

What is your exact workflow that you've used with the V1U that worked without a problem? Timeline settings and all? I've tried several things now, and somewhere I have a setting wrong that keeps giving me very poor footage. Which stinks, because I know the footage looks much better!

Katie Mims · October 20th, 2008, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Zimmerman

in any event, here's a nice and simple workflow explanation for you that will hopefully help out:

Capturing HDV Into ProRes Via FireWire

Can you tell me how to use this workflow to create an "online" with newly captured footage? I understand the workflow, and I'm going to do a test of it, but I just don't know how to recapture only what's used in my timeline, and how to do that without the batch capture feature (which from what I read in the above link, isn't an available feature when capturing to ProRes).

Lee Berger · October 21st, 2008, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katie Mims

It's been my understanding that with the latest version of FCS, this isn't necessary. I've gone back and looked at my footage, and while the pulldown is in my raw footage, it is being properly removed in my timeline.

That's interesting. According to the FCS 2 manual

You can natively capture 1080p24 video using the 1080i60 Easy Setup, but your captured
footage will retain 3:2 pull-down in this case. For transcoded capture of 1080p24 footage
with 3:2 pull-down removed, use the Apple ProRes 422 codec Easy Setup.

So according to the manual, if you captured natively (HDV, 1080 60i) then you should still have pulldown even on the timeline. I was successful because I captured directly to ProRes so the pulldown was removed upon the capture.

Can you post a second or so of your edit? Export without recompression and post the .mov file.

One thing to consider is how you are monitoring. Are you using the Cinema Display? If so you won't get the same quality as monitoring with a true HD monitor. That said, I use my Cinema Display to monitor (1080 60i) all the time and while there are interlacing issues I find the quality to be quite good. I found it to be especially good on my 24pA test. Are you monitoring via firewire to an SD monitor? The ability to monitor HD via firewire to SD is new to the latest version but the quality is horrendous. I only use it with external scopes to monitor levels.

Finally, you can't recapture if you use the FireWire to ProRes easy setup. As you noted it is only capture now and you can't batch capture.

Anyway I hope some of this is helpful.

Justin Zimmerman · October 21st, 2008, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katie Mims

I'm not very familiar with the process of online/offline. Is it as simple as reimporting the clips used in my final edit through a batch capture? Can you direct me towards some links on how to do that?

What is your exact workflow that you've used with the V1U that worked without a problem? Timeline settings and all? I've tried several things now, and somewhere I have a setting wrong that keeps giving me very poor footage. Which stinks, because I know the footage looks much better!

sorry, i was using film school terminology. say i shoot on 35mm...i have the footage transferred in lower resolution formats for my first edit - the offline cut...then take my edit decision list and go back and cut on a higher res format or on film itself - the online cut.

point being YOU NEED TO REIMPORT ALL ORIGINAL FOOTAGE USING THE PRO RES CODEC INTO FCP STUDIO 2. then use your original "offline cut" and your EDL to recut your correctly formatted footage. if you reimport using the Pro Res CODEC, Final Cut Pro will set up your sequence in the correct format NO MATTER WHAT YOU SET IT AS. no more problems! you can set your sequence as NTSC DV and drop your Pro Res footage into the sequence and FCP will ask if it might set the sequence to match your footage.

there is no workaround that i can see here. import the footage again using the Pro Res CODEC. use your original cut as a guide. next time you'll do it right the first time!

Katie Mims · October 21st, 2008, 09:37 PM

Justin,

Okay, so I used this workflow: Capturing HDV Into ProRes Via FireWire

Footage still looks bad. Here's a few screen captures:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3070/...2a42ab07_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3139/...66a704db_o.jpg

These are from the QT files, not from within FCP.

So is it safe to say that since I followed the workflow above, my issue is a setting on the camera? Gain too high? What?

Thanks for all your help.

October 15th, 2008, 10:03 PM	#1
Katie Mims Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 32	V1U/Aliasing Hi All, I know there is TONS of information out there on workflows for the V1U and FCS2, but I've read so much of it at this point and heard so many different points of view that I'm just at a loss now:-( I have a project I shot on the V1U, 24p, Cinema Picture Profile. I'm editing with FCS2 6.0.4, on a MacPro 2x3 Dual Core with 4GB memory and a HD Cinema Display. I captured in FCS 6.0.4 with these settings: Sequence: HDV - 1080i60 Capture: HDV Device Control: HDV Firewire I know from looking at my footage (which unfortunately I've already edited...don't ask my why I went ahead and did this, knowing it looked crummy) that these are the wrong settings. From reading this: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-hvr-...cp-6-02-a.html It's my understanding that the proper workflow is: 24p/60i on tape: Capture to the 24p Apple Intermediate Codec or Apple ProRes 422 codec, then output to the HVR-V1 camcorder in 24p/60i mode. So, I have two questions. 1. Will the workflow above work properly and give me footage without the aliasing? 2. Which is best, AIC or ProRes? 3. Obviously I need to re-capture. Is there a way to do a batch capture only using clips used in my current timeline, so that everything automatically matches to what I've edited with the new footage, or do I have to start over from scratch? ANY help/advice is much appreciated. Katie

October 16th, 2008, 07:59 PM	#5
Hugh Mobley Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Placentia, Calif Posts: 549	try shooting 60i and editing progressive, that works for me most of the time. I edit 30p and use cineform to capture and deinterlace, you might also read all you can on the cmos chip because you are dealing with skew, wobble, rolling shutter, I believe shutter speed is crital when shooting 24p, and there can't be much talent movement w/o blur and cam must be on a tripod, I am still trying to figure out how they do it on "No Reservations" thet shoot, I think 30p, Sony says the V1 is 24/30p but its 60i coming from the film until you remove pulldown, and if its going back to tv or dvd it will go back to 60i either in dvda or the tv. if you can look at your footage thru an hdmi cable on a hd tv, it might shock you how good it is __________________ Hugh Mobley www.petplanetvideos.com http://exposureroom.com/members/hmobley.aspx/

October 18th, 2008, 04:08 AM	#8
Lee Berger Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 326	It's not an off line on line issue. As I understand it you capture and then remove the pulldown. I don't believe this creates any additional compression to the captured media, but it does create more media. I admit that I haven't tried this workflow, using Compressor or Cinema Tools, because I shot in the 24pA mode. According to Phillip Hodgetts in his HD Survival Handbook: On the Sony V1U, Z7, Z270, EX-1, EX-3 check that you are recording in 24A mode. This is not Advanced Pulldown but instead ensures that each new recording will start a new GOP with the correct Timecode sequence so that the 3:2 pulldown can be removed in a batch process. Without this we have to manually set the pulldown cadence for each captured clip, before running it through Cinema Tools because Cinema Tools expects the A frame of the pulldown sequence to always start on a 0 or 5 frame Timecode. That is 00:00:12:00 and 00:00:12:05, 00:00:12:10, 00:00:12:15 etc. Also: When capturing, Apple presents the choice to capture to the native codec or to convert to ProRes 422 on capture. Because Cinema Tools requires an all I-frame codec to work, meaning HDV and XDCAM HD won’t work in native format, converting to ProRes 422 on capture is definitely recommended. Compressor can Reverse Telecine HDV and XDCAM HD but it will take a much longer time than from all-I-frame footage, as each frame needs to be constructed from 15 frames, before it can be determined which frames need pulldown removed and which do not. This is very computationally intensive. It is much more efficient to convert on capture. In my test case I didn't have to do anything post capture because I used Balis' 24pA to ProRes preset and 3:2 pulldown is removed during the capture by FCP. Finally, I usually shoot in 60i because my products also go out on NTSC DVD. I encoded my 24pA test to DVD to see how it would look when the player adds back the pulldown. I was not too pleased as it was too jittery on movement. It looked great on my 23" Apple Cinema Display. __________________ www.leebergermedia.com Last edited by Lee Berger; October 18th, 2008 at 06:56 AM.

October 16th, 2008, 12:32 PM	#2
Katie Mims Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 32	Hi all, Just to make sure I haven't lost my mind, I went back and looked at my footage clips in QuickTime, just to make sure I was right, but the artifacts are still there. It looks like a combination of interlacing and aliasing. I definitely shot in 24p, NOT 24pA. No question there. When I click through the frames, I end up with three frames that look good like this: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3049/...6cdf5085_o.jpg And two that look like this: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3208/...330318ff_o.jpg When I look at everything edited in FCS, it looks absolutely horrible. Infinitely worse than what is pictured in the photo above. I tried multiple sequence settings, and I can't seem to find anything that looks right. Ideas? What have I done wrong somewhere along the way? What settings do other V1U users use? Thanks, Katie

October 16th, 2008, 01:31 PM	#3
Justin Zimmerman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 101	i tend to use 30P ...saves a lot of headaches later and unless i'm exporting to film, i like the look as it tends to mix the best of the video and film world in a unique way. i import and edit with the Pro Res CODEC. while this increases file size, it streamlines the process and helps tremendously! here's an example of a project using this workflow on YouTube. do yourself a favor and watch in High Quality: YouTube - Compassionate Eye Foundation / Getty Images 2008 Summer Solstice Shoot in any event, here's a nice and simple workflow explanation for you that will hopefully help out: Capturing HDV Into ProRes Via FireWire 24p explanation: 24p In Final CDut Pro HD and best of all, exporting from HDV to DVD explanations: Exporting HDV Video from the Timeline to Standard Definition DVD good luck!

October 16th, 2008, 01:48 PM	#4
Katie Mims Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 32	Justin, Thanks! That's very helpful. I'll have to do a few tests for future shoots. But in the meantime, I have to fix the project I'm working on right now. Any idea as to how I can go about that? My original footage looks much better in Quicktime than it does in FCP, despite the gross frame every three frames that I mentioned above. Still not great, but better than in FCP. I'm sure it's a setting somewhere, I just can't seem to find out what setting it is. Am I going to need to re-capture as ProRes? If so, what is the best way to do this so that I don't have to re-edit everything, and capture more than what I'm using in the timeline?

October 17th, 2008, 07:42 PM	#7
Justin Zimmerman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 101	so, what we're saying is... use Compressor to get a decent "offline" copy if possible (but i'm guessing not) create an EDL and re import using the Pro Res CODEC for your "online!"

October 19th, 2008, 11:36 PM	#9
Justin Zimmerman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 101	i used quotes around online and offline for a reason... in other words, use the poorly imported cut as an "offline" version - ie a rough cut... get her edit decision list together... then reimport the footage following the links i provided above for Pro Res... which i was calling her "online" version... instead of trying to take the poorly imported version and trying to use Compressor to make it right. and i've never had a problem with 24P or 30P when using the Pro Res CODEC in Final Cut Pro Studio 2.

October 21st, 2008, 09:37 PM	#15
Katie Mims Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 32	Justin, Okay, so I used this workflow: Capturing HDV Into ProRes Via FireWire Footage still looks bad. Here's a few screen captures: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3070/...2a42ab07_o.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3139/...66a704db_o.jpg These are from the QT files, not from within FCP. So is it safe to say that since I followed the workflow above, my issue is a setting on the camera? Gain too high? What? Thanks for all your help.