V1 Limitations

Stu Holmes · November 27th, 2007, 08:23 PM

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that i think there's a good chance the individual camera in question is defective. Certainly a good enough chance to warrant a return to the supplier.
If you don't return it, then you'll always be wondering IF you're unit is defective in some way (possibly just a small way, but defective nevertheless) and so you are almost certain to be unhappy going forward if you do nothing.

Reasons :
1) Other owners of the V1 report not seeing this same image problem in similar circumstances/setup
2) It even does it when handheld (which it shouldnt do IMO) and, again, others havent reported seeing this under handheld situations.

Definitely i think the owner has to return the cam to the place it was purchased and get an exchange or certainly a full inspection/ or repair as necessary. Yes its a hassle / expense etc but if it's necessary, its necessary.

Ultimately about the only way to be SURE that the unit is defective is to do a straight A to B comparison with another V1U - same setup, same subject, same time, same movement etc.
Compare the results and then you should know if this is just a "V1's OIS implementation just does that" OR its a case of a faulty individual unit.

I have had Sony cams with OIS (still do) and i have never seen anything as bad as that, under any circumstances (handheld, monopod and the occasional tripod).

just my opinion on this.

Francis Alexandrino · November 27th, 2007, 09:40 PM

Wise point of view.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Medico

Francis, thanks for taking the time to post this video.

Also, GREAT guitar collection! I have a Fender Strat myself. ;)

Music is my passion. I have tree basses (two hand made) and one strato Jimmy Voghan signal series. I love it all.

* a litle question: Have you noticed jumps like that when your v1 is on tripod?

Marcus Marchesseault · November 28th, 2007, 03:38 AM

I have NOT seen jumps like that in any camera I have used. OIS has caused a sort of drifting behavior on a few cameras and it can be annoying but I haven't seen that little hiccup at the end of a pan like in this video. The first time I had OIS problems I made it even worse by trying to compensate for the drift by counter movements. It just made it look like I was operating the camera drunk. If this was my camera, I would send it back as defective. I shot a wedding a couple of weeks ago with hard OIS the entire time while shooting from a monopod. I haven't reviewed every frame of video yet, but I haven't noticed any "jumps". I would describe normal OIS problems as a random drift like a drunk person stumbling and I haven't had any of those in normal shooting conditions. I still turn off OIS entirely if I'm on a tripod and zooming in.

Tom Hardwick · November 28th, 2007, 04:20 AM

Sony are proud of their OIS (a joint developement with Canon). So proud of its transparency in fact that (as far as I know) they're the only manufacturer to light up a viewfinder icon warning that the OIS is *OFF*. All other manufacturers have a 'image stabiliser on' icon on screen.

Of all the myriad technology on board my Z1 you know the one piece that still has me gob-smacked with admiration? It is the OIS. It's fast, silent, accurate, available, cheap, effective. I've only got to switch it off for a moment and I can count my heart beats on screen.

tom.

Francis Alexandrino · November 28th, 2007, 06:46 AM

if the jumps didnt occur, i could turn on steadyshot all the time. I think it is so boring turn on and off the OIS and some times - i work with daily hard news - it is impossible. I have to think about many things when i m working to waste my health worried if steady is on or off. Though the complaints about V1 and Z1 OIS, the z1 i tested was very stable and trusty. The owner, a friend of mine, shots all the time with steady on. He is specialized in surf shots and he does the best takes i v ever seem. He makes pans, tilts etc on tripod and i didnt notice any unwanted effect. On water, he shots waves pipes, he fixes his camera on his surfboard and go surfing, he puts his camera on its limit. He has got no complaints, only about the size and the weigh of Z1. He dreams of V1 cam. I want to test other V1 but i still had no opportunity.

As i said, the jump occur only in specific situations, in a few situations. Until now, it has happened only on bad takes or on tests that i did the specific movements forcing the image jump.

But independent of that, i cannot work praying for god to got stable shots. And it tends to be more problematic because sometimes i have to pay a cameraman whenever i cant do the whole news process (i m a journalist, a TV reporter). One day it might mess my work.

By other side, it will be very difficult and expensive to return the UNIT. First of all, i have to pay taxes to bring it back to Brazil. Second of all, i will need to rent a camera wile it is in USA. Sony deserved to be legally punished but i think there is nothing to do. In my country, the justice use to punish corporations in situations like that. But i have no choice and i will return it. Now i m convinced that i have a defective unit.

I MUST THANKS A LOT YOU ALL TO WASTE YOUR TIME READING MY COMPLAINTS, WATCHING MY VIDEOS TESTS ETC. EACH OPINION HELP ME A LOT TO DECIDE WHAT TO DO.

Tom Hardwick · November 28th, 2007, 07:07 AM

It's no waste of time Francis as it teaches us all; we never stop learning. But you've bought a defective unit from B & H, right? Then I'm quite sure they wouldn't want their reputation harmed and would be very pleased to swap it for a correctly working version. You have a guarantee from Sony for just such possibilities, and you have video proof up on blip.tv that your particular unit is faulty.

How can you be charged taxes a second time round? I assume you've paid them already - now all you want is a working camera. And I wouldn't be too hard on Sony. They want you to be happy, that's why the V1 is such sparkling quality in such an affordable package. Their guarantee comes to back up their confidence.

tom.

Francis Alexandrino · November 28th, 2007, 07:42 AM

At first time, they tell me that i have to pay the taxes again because i had 7 days to return the unit with no costs. Now it is sony responsibility, they said. They could intermediate the sony support but i have to pay the costs, including Brazilian special ship cost that i have paid before - U$ 875. Within the first 7 days, i didnt notice no problem. And only now, 2 months later, i m sure about that.

Well, i will negotiate with BH because i dont think it is correct. I had paid taxes to ship it to Brazil and now they must support me. They have a special service to Brazil consumer and they might not run away when you got problem.

I JUST TALK TO BH AND THEY WILL SUPPORT ME. I WILL PAY THE SHIP COST, ABOUT U$ 150, WHAT I THINK IT IS FAIR (NOT SO MUCH).

Chris Medico · November 28th, 2007, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Alexandrino

Wise point of view.

Music is my passion. I have tree basses (two hand made) and one strato Jimmy Voghan signal series. I love it all.

* a litle question: Have you noticed jumps like that when your v1 is on tripod?

I have noticed jumps with my camera on a tripod with the OIS on and the setting to MED or HARD. It was most apparent on long zooms (as you would expect). Nothing as severe as what you have recorded.

With the OIS on SOFT I have no noticeable jumps on a tripod. I will make a few test recordings to demonstrate when I get my camera back. For reference my tripod is a Bogen 503 head/3182 legs

OT - On the guitar front, I have a Texas Special Strat, An Ibenez Artist, A Washburn BT3 (Strat Clone), and a Gibson SG. For bass I have a Yahama 4 string. I held my first guitar when I was a child and ever since I can't imagine life without one nearby. Maybe in another 30 years I will figure it out how to play them. ;)

Thumbs up on the hand made guitars! I've always wanted to build one myself. One day..

Francis Alexandrino · November 28th, 2007, 08:30 AM

It is so curios, because in my case jumps never occur on zoons, independent of it is long, fast etc. It occur only on movements that i v showed. But at any steady set, both on tripod and handheld (steady) shot.

* One o my hand made bass is fretless and i bought it on music store. The other, i made the body, the neck and apply the finish lacquer. But the radius neck (7.25" like fender 60's) and the frets, i paid an excellent luttier to do that job. You have excellent guitars!!! (i play guitar - not so good - but i play bass in the way i like it)

Chris Medico · November 28th, 2007, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Alexandrino

It is so curios, because in my case jumps never occur on zoons, independent of it is long, fast etc. It occur only on movements that i v showed. But at any steady set, both on tripod and handheld (steady) shot.

* One o my hand made bass is fretless and i bought it on music store. The other, i made the body, the neck and apply the finish lacquer. But the radius neck (7.25" like fender 60's) and the frets, i paid an excellent luttier to do that job. You have excellent guitars!!! (i play guitar - not so good - but i play bass in the way i like it)

I'm sorry if I misstated when the jumps occur. They only happen when the camera is panned and not during a zoom.

What I really meant to convey was that it was more obvious when the camera was panned and the lens was zoomed in full.

Francis Alexandrino · November 30th, 2007, 02:59 PM

Today i tested other Z1, on tripod, with OIS on hard set and telephoto. After lots of movements, the jump has occurred. But it was nothing like my V1. It was very different: little jump at the end of the movement, not big jumps after the movement stop, like in my case.

Greg Laves · December 8th, 2007, 12:31 AM

I borrowed a V1U to shoot some footage of motorcycle road racing. I immediatly got the jumps during the middle of fast pans while on a tripod. I suspected that it was an issue with the image stabilazation system and turned it off right away. Problem solved. Later that day I went through the menu and set the OIS to "soft" and the problem went away. But I have noticed another issue with this camera and I am curios if anyone else has seen this. I didn't notice this idiosyncrasy before the camera was returned. On steady handheld shots and tripod shots, occasionaly the image has a slow gentle rocking motion. I didn't notice it during shooting or initial viewing on my computer, only when viewing it later on a 50" plasma. And I don't really remember whether the OIS was on or off or even if autofocus was on or off. Anybody else ever experience this?

BTW. Someone mentioned not being able to record audio on the "line" position, only on the "mic" position. This particular V1's owner told me he had the same problem but I read the manual, set the controls up properly and I had no issue getting either line or mic audio off of my field mixer.

If the issues I encountered with the V1 are all related to the OIS, I really wouldn't have an issue with turning it off since I have shot a lot a Beta SP footage without the benefit of an image stabilizer. Even though it is handy on a small light camcorder. I was extremely impressed with the V1. I guess there is no perfect camera. I was on a shoot a couple of weeks ago with a HVX200. After that experience, if I were going to buy a new HDV camcorder in this price range, I would get the V1.

Mark OConnell · December 9th, 2007, 04:36 PM

Francis

I had a very similar problem with my V1. I had used it for a couple of months with no issues at all, then all of a sudden one day the image started jumping, on a tripod. I stared at it and wondered if we were having an earthquake or something. I started a thread here and the consensus was that it was because OIS must have been left on. Anyway, I emailed some short clips of this to Sony service and they said to send in the camera, which I did. The tech who got it was tenacious enough to leave it on, on a tripod attached to a monitor for like 48 hrs until the image started jumping for him as well. He replaced some parts, I never found out what parts, and returned the camera. Since getting it back there've been no problems.

Leslie Wand · December 9th, 2007, 09:34 PM

i've follwed this thread for awhile, all the time shooting with my v1p. i have a wa on all the time, and ois to wa. ocassionally i'll forget to turn it off and will 'perhaps' be rewarded with a little jump at the end of a pan. turn it off. no problem.

i also think it's a pretty amazing system, quite brilliant in fact.

francis, i don't know why you bought it from b&h when you have sony in brazil. did you think to get a 'worldwide' guarantee, or makie coverage, or check with sony brazil?

i live in australia and though i do shop for things wherever they occur, cheap batteries from hk for example, i would never have ever thought to buy an expensive piece of electronics from abroad WITHOUT know the full implications of doing so.

i don't mean to lecture, but the net is a wonderful department store, but unless the department you're dealing with is in the same country as you reside, you'll find the complaints department usually totally unhelpful.

good luck,

leslie

Francis Alexandrino · December 11th, 2007, 02:05 PM

Leslie, the explanation is simple. I live in a poor industrialized country that closes their borders to protect brazilian manufacturers. The taxes reach 60% of the product price, for instance, even if has no similar produced here. It is hard to believe but its is true. A U$ 3.700 camera costs here U$ 6.000 or more expensive. The B&H sells me with low taxes, very low taxes: 20 % or less than it. How they do that is not my business. But they do. They sell and they support us too. I will return the camera to them and they will fix it. I might have bought an international warranty, but i didn t know that and i haven t bought. But they will fix it in USA.

November 28th, 2007, 06:46 AM	#80
Francis Alexandrino New Boot Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Brazil Posts: 23	if the jumps didnt occur, i could turn on steadyshot all the time. I think it is so boring turn on and off the OIS and some times - i work with daily hard news - it is impossible. I have to think about many things when i m working to waste my health worried if steady is on or off. Though the complaints about V1 and Z1 OIS, the z1 i tested was very stable and trusty. The owner, a friend of mine, shots all the time with steady on. He is specialized in surf shots and he does the best takes i v ever seem. He makes pans, tilts etc on tripod and i didnt notice any unwanted effect. On water, he shots waves pipes, he fixes his camera on his surfboard and go surfing, he puts his camera on its limit. He has got no complaints, only about the size and the weigh of Z1. He dreams of V1 cam. I want to test other V1 but i still had no opportunity. As i said, the jump occur only in specific situations, in a few situations. Until now, it has happened only on bad takes or on tests that i did the specific movements forcing the image jump. But independent of that, i cannot work praying for god to got stable shots. And it tends to be more problematic because sometimes i have to pay a cameraman whenever i cant do the whole news process (i m a journalist, a TV reporter). One day it might mess my work. By other side, it will be very difficult and expensive to return the UNIT. First of all, i have to pay taxes to bring it back to Brazil. Second of all, i will need to rent a camera wile it is in USA. Sony deserved to be legally punished but i think there is nothing to do. In my country, the justice use to punish corporations in situations like that. But i have no choice and i will return it. Now i m convinced that i have a defective unit. I MUST THANKS A LOT YOU ALL TO WASTE YOUR TIME READING MY COMPLAINTS, WATCHING MY VIDEOS TESTS ETC. EACH OPINION HELP ME A LOT TO DECIDE WHAT TO DO. Last edited by Francis Alexandrino; November 28th, 2007 at 01:32 PM.

November 28th, 2007, 07:42 AM	#82
Francis Alexandrino New Boot Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Brazil Posts: 23	At first time, they tell me that i have to pay the taxes again because i had 7 days to return the unit with no costs. Now it is sony responsibility, they said. They could intermediate the sony support but i have to pay the costs, including Brazilian special ship cost that i have paid before - U$ 875. Within the first 7 days, i didnt notice no problem. And only now, 2 months later, i m sure about that. Well, i will negotiate with BH because i dont think it is correct. I had paid taxes to ship it to Brazil and now they must support me. They have a special service to Brazil consumer and they might not run away when you got problem. I JUST TALK TO BH AND THEY WILL SUPPORT ME. I WILL PAY THE SHIP COST, ABOUT U$ 150, WHAT I THINK IT IS FAIR (NOT SO MUCH). Last edited by Francis Alexandrino; November 28th, 2007 at 08:45 AM.

November 27th, 2007, 08:23 PM	#76
Stu Holmes Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 844	My opinion, for what it's worth, is that i think there's a good chance the individual camera in question is defective. Certainly a good enough chance to warrant a return to the supplier. If you don't return it, then you'll always be wondering IF you're unit is defective in some way (possibly just a small way, but defective nevertheless) and so you are almost certain to be unhappy going forward if you do nothing. Reasons : 1) Other owners of the V1 report not seeing this same image problem in similar circumstances/setup 2) It even does it when handheld (which it shouldnt do IMO) and, again, others havent reported seeing this under handheld situations. Definitely i think the owner has to return the cam to the place it was purchased and get an exchange or certainly a full inspection/ or repair as necessary. Yes its a hassle / expense etc but if it's necessary, its necessary. Ultimately about the only way to be SURE that the unit is defective is to do a straight A to B comparison with another V1U - same setup, same subject, same time, same movement etc. Compare the results and then you should know if this is just a "V1's OIS implementation just does that" OR its a case of a faulty individual unit. I have had Sony cams with OIS (still do) and i have never seen anything as bad as that, under any circumstances (handheld, monopod and the occasional tripod). just my opinion on this.

November 28th, 2007, 03:38 AM	#78
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	I have NOT seen jumps like that in any camera I have used. OIS has caused a sort of drifting behavior on a few cameras and it can be annoying but I haven't seen that little hiccup at the end of a pan like in this video. The first time I had OIS problems I made it even worse by trying to compensate for the drift by counter movements. It just made it look like I was operating the camera drunk. If this was my camera, I would send it back as defective. I shot a wedding a couple of weeks ago with hard OIS the entire time while shooting from a monopod. I haven't reviewed every frame of video yet, but I haven't noticed any "jumps". I would describe normal OIS problems as a random drift like a drunk person stumbling and I haven't had any of those in normal shooting conditions. I still turn off OIS entirely if I'm on a tripod and zooming in.

November 28th, 2007, 04:20 AM	#79
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Sony are proud of their OIS (a joint developement with Canon). So proud of its transparency in fact that (as far as I know) they're the only manufacturer to light up a viewfinder icon warning that the OIS is OFF. All other manufacturers have a 'image stabiliser on' icon on screen. Of all the myriad technology on board my Z1 you know the one piece that still has me gob-smacked with admiration? It is the OIS. It's fast, silent, accurate, available, cheap, effective. I've only got to switch it off for a moment and I can count my heart beats on screen. tom.

November 28th, 2007, 07:07 AM	#81
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	It's no waste of time Francis as it teaches us all; we never stop learning. But you've bought a defective unit from B & H, right? Then I'm quite sure they wouldn't want their reputation harmed and would be very pleased to swap it for a correctly working version. You have a guarantee from Sony for just such possibilities, and you have video proof up on blip.tv that your particular unit is faulty. How can you be charged taxes a second time round? I assume you've paid them already - now all you want is a working camera. And I wouldn't be too hard on Sony. They want you to be happy, that's why the V1 is such sparkling quality in such an affordable package. Their guarantee comes to back up their confidence. tom.

November 28th, 2007, 08:30 AM	#84
Francis Alexandrino New Boot Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Brazil Posts: 23	It is so curios, because in my case jumps never occur on zoons, independent of it is long, fast etc. It occur only on movements that i v showed. But at any steady set, both on tripod and handheld (steady) shot. * One o my hand made bass is fretless and i bought it on music store. The other, i made the body, the neck and apply the finish lacquer. But the radius neck (7.25" like fender 60's) and the frets, i paid an excellent luttier to do that job. You have excellent guitars!!! (i play guitar - not so good - but i play bass in the way i like it)

November 30th, 2007, 02:59 PM	#86
Francis Alexandrino New Boot Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Brazil Posts: 23	Today i tested other Z1, on tripod, with OIS on hard set and telephoto. After lots of movements, the jump has occurred. But it was nothing like my V1. It was very different: little jump at the end of the movement, not big jumps after the movement stop, like in my case.

December 8th, 2007, 12:31 AM	#87
Greg Laves Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Corpus Christi, TX Posts: 640	I borrowed a V1U to shoot some footage of motorcycle road racing. I immediatly got the jumps during the middle of fast pans while on a tripod. I suspected that it was an issue with the image stabilazation system and turned it off right away. Problem solved. Later that day I went through the menu and set the OIS to "soft" and the problem went away. But I have noticed another issue with this camera and I am curios if anyone else has seen this. I didn't notice this idiosyncrasy before the camera was returned. On steady handheld shots and tripod shots, occasionaly the image has a slow gentle rocking motion. I didn't notice it during shooting or initial viewing on my computer, only when viewing it later on a 50" plasma. And I don't really remember whether the OIS was on or off or even if autofocus was on or off. Anybody else ever experience this? BTW. Someone mentioned not being able to record audio on the "line" position, only on the "mic" position. This particular V1's owner told me he had the same problem but I read the manual, set the controls up properly and I had no issue getting either line or mic audio off of my field mixer. If the issues I encountered with the V1 are all related to the OIS, I really wouldn't have an issue with turning it off since I have shot a lot a Beta SP footage without the benefit of an image stabilizer. Even though it is handy on a small light camcorder. I was extremely impressed with the V1. I guess there is no perfect camera. I was on a shoot a couple of weeks ago with a HVX200. After that experience, if I were going to buy a new HDV camcorder in this price range, I would get the V1.

December 9th, 2007, 04:36 PM	#88
Mark OConnell Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 420	Francis I had a very similar problem with my V1. I had used it for a couple of months with no issues at all, then all of a sudden one day the image started jumping, on a tripod. I stared at it and wondered if we were having an earthquake or something. I started a thread here and the consensus was that it was because OIS must have been left on. Anyway, I emailed some short clips of this to Sony service and they said to send in the camera, which I did. The tech who got it was tenacious enough to leave it on, on a tripod attached to a monitor for like 48 hrs until the image started jumping for him as well. He replaced some parts, I never found out what parts, and returned the camera. Since getting it back there've been no problems.

December 9th, 2007, 09:34 PM	#89
Leslie Wand Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: upper hunter, australia Posts: 1,410	i've follwed this thread for awhile, all the time shooting with my v1p. i have a wa on all the time, and ois to wa. ocassionally i'll forget to turn it off and will 'perhaps' be rewarded with a little jump at the end of a pan. turn it off. no problem. i also think it's a pretty amazing system, quite brilliant in fact. francis, i don't know why you bought it from b&h when you have sony in brazil. did you think to get a 'worldwide' guarantee, or makie coverage, or check with sony brazil? i live in australia and though i do shop for things wherever they occur, cheap batteries from hk for example, i would never have ever thought to buy an expensive piece of electronics from abroad WITHOUT know the full implications of doing so. i don't mean to lecture, but the net is a wonderful department store, but unless the department you're dealing with is in the same country as you reside, you'll find the complaints department usually totally unhelpful. good luck, leslie

December 11th, 2007, 02:05 PM	#90
Francis Alexandrino New Boot Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Brazil Posts: 23	Leslie, the explanation is simple. I live in a poor industrialized country that closes their borders to protect brazilian manufacturers. The taxes reach 60% of the product price, for instance, even if has no similar produced here. It is hard to believe but its is true. A U$ 3.700 camera costs here U$ 6.000 or more expensive. The B&H sells me with low taxes, very low taxes: 20 % or less than it. How they do that is not my business. But they do. They sell and they support us too. I will return the camera to them and they will fix it. I might have bought an international warranty, but i didn t know that and i haven t bought. But they will fix it in USA.