V1 Limitations

Chris Hurd · November 26th, 2007, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Alexandrino

And my user manual tell me to use steady all the time, even on tripod.

Page 63 under SteadyShot:

"Set On/Off to OFF when using a tripod..."

Heath McKnight · November 26th, 2007, 11:27 PM

Though not as bad as my old Canon XL1, when I leave the steadishot on while the V1u (or any camera) is on a tripod, I get weird "waves" in my video. Because it's trying to stabilize something that is already stable.

(And if you're video is shaky, and you're on Final Cut Pro 6, try Smoothcam.)

heath

Francis Alexandrino · November 26th, 2007, 11:34 PM

Yes it is there. Sorry.

But they dont say "jump. In my opinion, if my problem is normal - and you all will see when i ulpload an image - , they had to put: CAUTION your unit is not defective, the image jumps, shakes, dance, moves their bones, but it is normal.

Tom Hardwick · November 27th, 2007, 02:07 AM

Although Chris Hurd is adamant that your camera isn't faulty I find his confidence-from-afar difficult to accept. I rather like Chris Medico's thinking out the box, where he suggests that the longer zoom on the V1 means the settings (hard, normal etc) can be positioned at different levels as against the Z1 - which has far less telephoto reach.

Of course there's the possibility that Francis' camera has a fault, as all our cameras are a huge conglomeration of moving mechanical parts. To suggest that Francis' car is also perfect and normal because he kangaroo-hops it away from rest ignores the fact that the clutch may be the only faulty part.

I do like Chris H's explanation of the Steadyshot principle and agree with every word he says. I can't side with Heath though, as Sony's OIS (not sure about Canon's interpretation as they add EIS to the OIS on the XL series) is simply waiting for input (i.e. camera movement) to start the OIS lenses moving. The 'wierd waves' are much more likely to be caused by electromagnetic interference - much discussed here.

Francis, painful as it is, I do believe your V1 to be faulty. With the huge nombers sold and the vastly intricate electro-mechanical construction of the beast, some parts of some cameras will indeed fail. It's the law of the land.

tom.

Chris Hurd · November 27th, 2007, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Hardwick

I rather like Chris Medico's thinking out the box, where he suggests that the longer zoom on the V1 means the settings (hard, normal etc) can be positioned at different levels as against the Z1 - which has far less telephoto reach.

Fully agreed on that point.

I say let's see some footage. I know an OIS jump when I see one and if Francis can show us some video then we'll all have a much more clear idea of his particular issue.

Francis Alexandrino · November 27th, 2007, 01:19 PM

Well, the images jumps link.

http://francisalexandrino.blip.tv/

there are lots of takes, in many conditions, with all steady levels

thanks

Piotr Wozniacki · November 27th, 2007, 01:59 PM

Francis,

As I said before: my V1E never shows this sort of jumps - no matter which OIS setting is on. On the other hand, we could look at it from the opposite viewpoint: perhaps my camera's OIS is not that "efficient" as yours, and this is the reason I really do not have to turn it off when on tripod?

Francis Alexandrino · November 27th, 2007, 02:27 PM

i dont think so

Tom Hardwick · November 27th, 2007, 02:30 PM

So that little 'glurp' at the end of each shot where the image 'bounces back' was captured on tape after the camera had come to a complete stop Francis? Never seen anything like it on any of my seven Sony cameras - all with SSSS OIS, 3 with VAP and the remainder with vibrating internal elements.

It's quite unacceptable in my view, and the camera should simply be swapped out for a correctly working one. Here in the UK the Silver service warrenty wouldn't argue, they'd sure as hell want your camera for R & D appraisal.

tom.

Francis Alexandrino · November 27th, 2007, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Hardwick

So that little 'glurp' at the end of each shot where the image 'bounces back' was captured on tape after the camera had come to a complete stop Francis?
tom.

Yes it was. i agree with you. I ll need to return to B&H etc etc. I think it is unacceptable. I expend lots of money to buy a defective unit and now i will have to pray and find a way to fix it in USA.

Chris Hurd · November 27th, 2007, 04:32 PM

Sorry to disagree with Tom, but in my opinion the end-of-shot "bumps" in these clips are consistent with similar OIS bumps that I've seen before. I'll admit to having little experience with the Sony line, but am very familiar with this sort of thing on the Canon side and honestly it looks just as I expected it would for having OIS switched on at the tripod.

As for the handheld shots, image stabilization can work against you if the camera is held very steady. With a good handholding technique, stabilization may not even be necessary. I would avoid the "hard" setting for SteadyShot in any case.

Having said that, I fully support Francis in his decision to return the camera but I'm not very optimistic about a replacement showing any difference -- but it's definitely worth a try. I still think the best solution is to simply do as the manual suggests by turning OIS off when shooting from a tripod.

If Francis is committed to avoiding Sony in the future, then my advice for him is to avoid Canon as well, because those who insist on using OIS from a tripod despite the warnings not to, will find the end-of-shot "bumps" just as annoying with any Canon camcorder (and no it is not a defect, for the reasons I've explained in detail previously).

Francis Alexandrino · November 27th, 2007, 04:41 PM

i m so confused

Ian Campbell · November 27th, 2007, 05:29 PM

Hi, Francis . . .

I have two HVR-V1U's, and I haven't seen this "bump" issue you have with your cam and its OIS system.

I DO however have a similar problem with a couple of HDR-HC1 camcorders. The bump or shimmer problem only occurs with the HC1's when the shutter speed is 1/60th or or less. At higher shutter speeds the EIS works very smoothly. I am planning to take the cameras in for service, but I'm not certain there is much that can be done.

Try shooting the same test(s) with a high shutter speed -- 1/100th or 1/125th, for example. I'd be curious to see if the "bumps" are still persist when going to a higher shutter speed. I like to always shoot at 1/60th, so the issue with the HCI's is a real problem for me. Even through both systems use different types of stabilization, perhaps they could have similar issues when shooting a 1/50th (PAL) or 1/60th (NTSC), for example.

Good luck!

Ian

PS: If you want to see more info. about the problems I've been having with my HC1's, check out the thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=50340

Francis Alexandrino · November 27th, 2007, 05:54 PM

It jumps at any speed.

Chris Medico · November 27th, 2007, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Alexandrino

Well, the images jumps link.

http://francisalexandrino.blip.tv/

there are lots of takes, in many conditions, with all steady levels

thanks

Francis, thanks for taking the time to post this video.

The video that stands out is the hand held shot of you panning down the building. I have to say I've not been able to get my camera to have a jump like that when its handheld. Only when on a tripod. Right now my camera is out on a shoot so I can't do any testing to help you.

I do hope you can get your camera repaired to your satisfaction.

Also, GREAT guitar collection! I have a Fender Strat myself. ;)

November 26th, 2007, 11:27 PM	#62
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Though not as bad as my old Canon XL1, when I leave the steadishot on while the V1u (or any camera) is on a tripod, I get weird "waves" in my video. Because it's trying to stabilize something that is already stable. (And if you're video is shaky, and you're on Final Cut Pro 6, try Smoothcam.) heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

November 26th, 2007, 11:34 PM	#63
Francis Alexandrino New Boot Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Brazil Posts: 23	Yes it is there. Sorry. But they dont say "jump. In my opinion, if my problem is normal - and you all will see when i ulpload an image - , they had to put: CAUTION your unit is not defective, the image jumps, shakes, dance, moves their bones, but it is normal. Last edited by Francis Alexandrino; November 27th, 2007 at 12:11 AM.

November 27th, 2007, 01:59 PM	#67
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Francis, As I said before: my V1E never shows this sort of jumps - no matter which OIS setting is on. On the other hand, we could look at it from the opposite viewpoint: perhaps my camera's OIS is not that "efficient" as yours, and this is the reason I really do not have to turn it off when on tripod? __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

November 27th, 2007, 04:32 PM	#71
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Sorry to disagree with Tom, but in my opinion the end-of-shot "bumps" in these clips are consistent with similar OIS bumps that I've seen before. I'll admit to having little experience with the Sony line, but am very familiar with this sort of thing on the Canon side and honestly it looks just as I expected it would for having OIS switched on at the tripod. As for the handheld shots, image stabilization can work against you if the camera is held very steady. With a good handholding technique, stabilization may not even be necessary. I would avoid the "hard" setting for SteadyShot in any case. Having said that, I fully support Francis in his decision to return the camera but I'm not very optimistic about a replacement showing any difference -- but it's definitely worth a try. I still think the best solution is to simply do as the manual suggests by turning OIS off when shooting from a tripod. If Francis is committed to avoiding Sony in the future, then my advice for him is to avoid Canon as well, because those who insist on using OIS from a tripod despite the warnings not to, will find the end-of-shot "bumps" just as annoying with any Canon camcorder (and no it is not a defect, for the reasons I've explained in detail previously). __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 27th, 2007, 02:07 AM	#64
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Although Chris Hurd is adamant that your camera isn't faulty I find his confidence-from-afar difficult to accept. I rather like Chris Medico's thinking out the box, where he suggests that the longer zoom on the V1 means the settings (hard, normal etc) can be positioned at different levels as against the Z1 - which has far less telephoto reach. Of course there's the possibility that Francis' camera has a fault, as all our cameras are a huge conglomeration of moving mechanical parts. To suggest that Francis' car is also perfect and normal because he kangaroo-hops it away from rest ignores the fact that the clutch may be the only faulty part. I do like Chris H's explanation of the Steadyshot principle and agree with every word he says. I can't side with Heath though, as Sony's OIS (not sure about Canon's interpretation as they add EIS to the OIS on the XL series) is simply waiting for input (i.e. camera movement) to start the OIS lenses moving. The 'wierd waves' are much more likely to be caused by electromagnetic interference - much discussed here. Francis, painful as it is, I do believe your V1 to be faulty. With the huge nombers sold and the vastly intricate electro-mechanical construction of the beast, some parts of some cameras will indeed fail. It's the law of the land. tom.

November 27th, 2007, 01:19 PM	#66
Francis Alexandrino New Boot Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Brazil Posts: 23	Well, the images jumps link. http://francisalexandrino.blip.tv/ there are lots of takes, in many conditions, with all steady levels thanks

November 27th, 2007, 02:27 PM	#68
Francis Alexandrino New Boot Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Brazil Posts: 23	i dont think so

November 27th, 2007, 02:30 PM	#69
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	So that little 'glurp' at the end of each shot where the image 'bounces back' was captured on tape after the camera had come to a complete stop Francis? Never seen anything like it on any of my seven Sony cameras - all with SSSS OIS, 3 with VAP and the remainder with vibrating internal elements. It's quite unacceptable in my view, and the camera should simply be swapped out for a correctly working one. Here in the UK the Silver service warrenty wouldn't argue, they'd sure as hell want your camera for R & D appraisal. tom.

November 27th, 2007, 04:41 PM	#72
Francis Alexandrino New Boot Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Brazil Posts: 23	i m so confused

November 27th, 2007, 05:29 PM	#73
Ian Campbell Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Toronto, ON Canada Posts: 141	Hi, Francis . . . I have two HVR-V1U's, and I haven't seen this "bump" issue you have with your cam and its OIS system. I DO however have a similar problem with a couple of HDR-HC1 camcorders. The bump or shimmer problem only occurs with the HC1's when the shutter speed is 1/60th or or less. At higher shutter speeds the EIS works very smoothly. I am planning to take the cameras in for service, but I'm not certain there is much that can be done. Try shooting the same test(s) with a high shutter speed -- 1/100th or 1/125th, for example. I'd be curious to see if the "bumps" are still persist when going to a higher shutter speed. I like to always shoot at 1/60th, so the issue with the HCI's is a real problem for me. Even through both systems use different types of stabilization, perhaps they could have similar issues when shooting a 1/50th (PAL) or 1/60th (NTSC), for example. Good luck! Ian PS: If you want to see more info. about the problems I've been having with my HC1's, check out the thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=50340

November 27th, 2007, 05:54 PM	#74
Francis Alexandrino New Boot Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Brazil Posts: 23	It jumps at any speed.