V1E - What is the progressive problem?

[Deniz Ahmet]

I've just obtained a V1E and having checked with Primecare understand the serial number may be in the range affected by the progressive issues discussed on here. I've been comparing progressive mode with Interlaced, and the visual quality looks no different - what actually does the problem look like, so I know what to look for.

Thank you...

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Deniz Ahmet

I've just obtained a V1E and having checked with Primecare understand the serial number may be in the range affected by the progressive issues discussed on here. I've been comparing progressive mode with Interlaced, and the visual quality looks no different - what actually does the problem look like, so I know what to look for.

Thank you...

You'll see flicker on very thein or very sharp horizontal lines. Flicker will increase as Sharpness is increased.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Please search this forum - I posted the serial number range of the first V1E's affected. If it's brand new, it should be free from any trouble; if its seial number falls within the range - call or email Prime Support to check whether it has been fixed (if you're buying second hand, for instance).

Generally speaking, the early units showed some resolution drop in 25p mode when compared to the 50i; it was particularly visible in areas of similar colour and high detail (grass being a typical example), which looked as if some noise reduction filter was applied (we called it the "oil paint effect").

[Deniz Ahmet]

... and are you guaranteed to have the 25p problem if so.

Thank you!

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

You'll see flicker on very thein or very sharp horizontal lines. Flicker will increase as Sharpness is increased.

Steve, you seem to have forgotten already what the original problem was about - the flickering lines are purely a display device problem, not recognizing the 25PsF signal correctly as progressive.

With the fixed firmware, you can use whatever sharpness setting you like - on most displays (via component or HDMI) the lines will twitter even when you reduce it down to zero, while on high-end ones that do not try to deinterlace the 25PsF stream, you can get stunning progressive performance with sharpness set as high as 15 - without any line twitter.

I personally tend to use this setting at 5 - but for purely easthetic reasons.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Deniz Ahmet

... and are you guaranteed to have the 25p problem if so.

Thank you!

1. the flawed cameras serials were 1210001-1211330
2. yes, but it's fully fixable. After the fix, the progressive mode is actually sharper than interlaced (though only with gain below some 9 dB).

I personally am using the 25p mode almost exclusively.

[Alnoor Dewshi]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

With the fixed firmware, you can use whatever sharpness setting you like - on most displays (via component or HDMI) the lines will twitter even when you reduce it down to zero, while on high-end ones that do not try to deinterlaced the 25PsF stream, you can get stunning progressive performance with sharpness set as high as 15 - without any line twitter.

Piotr, I'm very encouraged to hear that the lines don't twitter on a high end display. And that you shoot 25p almost exclusively. I mean, that's the main attraction of the V1 for me!

What format(s) do you distribute on? I understand that all tape is "i", which seems to me to leave it in the lap of the gods as to whether the viewer sees your work marred by twitter. Any idea how it works for blu-ray? Can you encode the 25PsF as 25P?

I'm also curious to know if you found any way to minimize the twitter in post? fcp's flicker filter yields mixed results.

I'm also wondering if the degree of twitter is affected by downconverting to dv; Basically, I'm set up to offline HDV source material at dv compression. I'd then take the project into a facility and conform and online uncompressed, output to HDcam. If the twitter is the result of fine horizontal details falling between two segmented field lines in the 25PsF stream, then presumably the effect is different at different resolutions? I suspect this means i might not be seeing how bad it is in the downconverted dv. As I don't have HD monitoring setup, I can't check before I get into the online. Any light you can shed on the difference will be much appreciated.

Thanks for all the info.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Steve, you seem to have forgotten already what the original problem was about -- the flickering lines are purely a display device problem, not recognizing the 25PsF signal correctly as progressive.

With the fixed firmware, you can use whatever sharpness setting you like - on most displays (via component or HDMI) the lines will twitter even when you reduce it down to zero,


while on high-end ones that do not try to deinterlaced the 25PsF stream, you can get stunning progressive performance with sharpness set as high as 15 - without any line twitter.

1) You say AFTER the fix "most displays (via component or HDMI) the lines will twitter even when you reduce Sharpness down to zero."

Since HD signals are input via Component or HDMI, you are saying 25p will flicker on ALL displays no matter their cost even after the fix. There's no other connection from HD DVD or BD or the V1.

2) You also say "on high-end ones that do not try to deinterlaced the 25PsF stream, you can get stunning progressive performance with sharpness set as high as 15 -- without any line twitter."

Since the input signal IS interlaced -- as it must be since HD DVD and BD do not carry 25p -- all displays must deinterlace the 50i signal to turn it into progressive for display. (Unless you are talking about a CRT.) Until there are HD DVD and BD carry 25p -- one is stuck DISTRIBUTING 50i or 60i or 24p. (Of course, at home you could use your computer at 25p, but that's not going to work for wedding videos, etc.) In any case, even if HD DVD and/or BD were to carry 25p, #1 would seem to trump #2 since the connection will be component or HDMI.

Moreover, what you sent me flickers while 30p does NOT. So that indicated the flicker was IN your video from a camcorder that had the fix.

Are you talking about the fix that was applied before the E model was shipped? Or, a later fix?

[Mikko Lopponen]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Since HD signals are input via Component or HDMI, you are saying 25p will flicker on ALL displays no matter their cost even after the fix. There's no other connection from HD DVD or BD or the V1.

... If you just take the video to your computer via firewire and edit and output progressive it will look fine. It will probably look better than fine, it will look as Wozniacki said, stunning.

Besides the original problem was the "oil paint"-effect, not line twittering.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

By "high-end displays" I mean the latest full HD ones with 1080p badge and pixel-to-pixel mapping; they usually have either a very smart deinterlacer, or even are intelligent enough to tell the 25PsF from 50i - using HDMI (and only HDMI; component will always be treated as interlaced), they are capable of properly displaying it. Steve is right in that with "unrestricted" delivery, I can never be sure how it will be played back, therefore I'm either:

- burning to Blu-Ray as 24p, after having nested a ready 25PsF project in a new 24p Vegas project and stretched it precisely for time-matching, or

- burning as 25PsF within the 1080/50i format, but having applied the "Reduce interlace flicker" filter to all Vegas project events before the final render.

Having said all this, I agree with Steve and Mikko that the problem may be considered non-existent if and *ONLY* if you're producing 25p MPEG2 stuff for home-watching using a computer MPEG2 player with deinterlacer off. The V1E might actually have too much of a vertical resolution, and only when 1080p HDTVs with PsF capabilities become wide-spread, will it be possible to safely deliver on HD media.

[Boyd Ostroff]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

By "high-end displays" I mean the latest full HD ones with 1080p badge and pixel-to-pixel mapping;

I really haven't followed this recently since I'm not in the market for a new screen. Are you saying there are consumer HDTV's which don't overscan now? That would be a big change, the last time I checked all of them cropped away part of the image around the edges. If they still do this then there must be scaling taking place...

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Boyd, I honestly don't know for sure - however, the marketing materials on the HDTVs in question do stress it that with pixel-to-pixel mapping, there is NO rescaling of full HD source.

[Victor Wilcox]

I've been looking for a used V1U. Do some V1U camcorders have the same progressive problems as some V1E camcorders?

[Alnoor Dewshi]

Originally Posted by Victor Wilcox

I've been looking for a used V1U. Do some V1U camcorders have the same progressive problems as some V1E camcorders?

No. The issues have only been with the V1E and 25P.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

The answer to your question is quite complicated, actually. According to Steve's theory, devised half a year ago when the 25PsF was discussed on this forum, it's the PAL V1 vertical resolution being too high (yes, you do read it right) that causes the tendency to line twitter on many displays (all if component is used). Use "search" and find how Steve derives his theory from the fact the the SD resolution of a PAL machine is obviously greater than than of an NTSC one...