HDMI & V1E

Ben Butler · September 26th, 2007, 10:12 AM

Hi,

I have read the Owners Manual and am none the wiser.

Here is what I have:

V1E <-> 10M HDMI <-> Cable Extender <-> 10M HDMI <-> BlackMagic + Ciniform

I am receiving no video or sonud singal on the PC in either Ciniform software of BlackMagic software.

I have checked the cables and everything is pluged in, extender in the right way around, drivers installed on PC and Hardware manager shows devices working ok and done the obvious turning camera on and off, tried with camera mode set both recording and not recording.

I am probably doing something dumb, but it has been a faught day and I am strugling to see where the above is going wrong.

Unfortunatly I do not have a monitor with HDMI input nor a HDMI to DVi cable to plug it into the montior I do have. So I cant remove the PC out of the equation.

I am going to try plugging in the camera in place of the cable extender and seeing if that makes any difference but I am not expecting miracles.

Can someone point be in the direction of the light switch and remove my blinkers.

Many thanks.

Kind Regards

Ben

Seth Bloombaum · September 26th, 2007, 11:06 AM

When I tested HDMI output from the (V1U) camera to an HDMI monitor, it was just a simple matter of plugging it in and watching it work!

There might be more experience on the Cineform forum here at DVInfo, David Newman of Cineform frequently posts there and they have tested your workflow (at least with 60i/30p/24p, maybe not PAL).

All I can suggest is trying it with just a 10m cable (no extender), and if that isn't working, a shorter cable. Be aware that any HDMI gear you want to use for this needs to support HDCP (the copy protection standard), or, your camera will sense no HDCP and will send a resolution-degraded signal down the line.

So, if either of your cables or the extender doesn't support HDCP you may be working at a resolution that the BM Intensity or Cineform doesn't support.

Also, I'd guess that the camera should be turned on last.

I wish I had some direct experience with your setup, I'm hopeful of shooting some green screen in a couple months using that workflow. Let us know how it goes.

Ben Butler · September 26th, 2007, 11:45 AM

Hi,

Check Status is reporting:

HMDI OUTPUT 720x576P

Even through the camera is set for HD1080 and the component is set 1080/576 (which does correctly report).

Very odd.

The Intensity card does not support copy protection as far as I know.

Kind Regards

Ben

Ben Butler · September 26th, 2007, 04:56 PM

Hi,

Well the F-Up farries have been out again - for no desernable reason other than to get me to carry everything back down stairs again and plonk it within cable distance of the AV cable to test that.

Everything is now working with the HDMI and cables + exteneder at 1920x1080i output being reported by check status (although I understand its not really 1920 but 1440???).

Capturing in Ciniform is working - the only thing I have changed is to go from Ciniform 1.4 to 1.6 but I swear it was still not working after I did that until I carried camera and cables down to PC.

For anyone that is interested - Capture PC is:

Duo Core 2 3.0GHz 1333MHz FSB - 2GB DDR3 1333MHz - 4x750GB SATA2 HD + Adapatec controller in RAID10 for capture data (giving 1.4TB of usable storage) + another 750GB HD for OS and another 750GB HD for applications - with twin ATi 1950XL Pro using crossfire.

Capture via Intensity Pro and Cineform NEO HD at HD1080 25PsF 8 bit 4:2:2.

Capture/Edit PC is at desk work area 20 meters from Camera with two HDMI cables with extender.

I can control the start/stop of capture + monitor (limited quality display) via a laptop next to camera using wireless and RDP to connect back to capture PC. It is not as nice as having anothe set of HDMI cables + HD screen but does work well enough not to buy one just yet.

V1E is fitted with M2 & Nikon.

I will post exmaples in due course.

Kind regards

Ben

Seth Bloombaum · September 26th, 2007, 06:54 PM

Ben, glad it's working.

When the camera status reported HDMI at 720x576P it is very likely that the camera thought HDCP was not supported.

I'd expect that it wasn't the carrying up and down stairs, but the connect/reconnect/repowering sequences that convinced the camera that HDCP was supported, so, it started sending full resolution.

I do look forward to seeing the results!

Ben Butler · September 28th, 2007, 02:48 PM

Hi,

I am sure I remember reading somewhere that the HVR-V1 outputs from HDMI at 1440.

Are we sure about this? The camera thinks it is outputing at 1920 and Vegas also thinks the files received are 1920. I dont have Ciniform doing any re-sizing.

Am I correct in drawing the pleasent conclusion that the camera is actually doing full HD @ 1920x1080?

You can find some initial still 24bit BMP captures here - these were all taken at constant distance and illumination at the lowest f number for each lens. HDMI 25P converted in ciniform to intermeidate codec at film scan quality and dropped to 24P + fliped

24 MM f2.8 AI - Nikon Nikkor
28 MM f2.8 AIs - Nikon Nikkor
50 MM f1.8 AIs - Nikon Nikkor
85 MM f2.0 AIs - Nikon Nikkor
105 MM f2.5 AI - Nikon Nikkor
135 MM f2.8 AI - Nikon Nikkor
180 MM f2.8 AI - Nikon Nikkor
80-@200 MM f4.0 AIs - Nikon Nikkor
@80-200 MM f4.0 AIs - Nikon Nikkor

I am looking at lens angle in the above because I dont beleive my own calculated lens angles from the trig with .25" CCD so thought I would do it impirically and work it back the other way.

http://vancouver.dfa.me.uk/captures/

Kind Regards

Ben

Ben Butler · September 28th, 2007, 05:05 PM

Hi,

For completeness, I have calculated the lens angles from the previous shots to be:

mm h v
24 57.79 32.50
28 50.49 28.40
50 28.14 15.83
85 15.99 8.99
105 11.81 6.64
135 8.50 4.78

Which is a lot better than my results for my original formula based approach based on a 0.25" CCD - maybe the M2 lens has an effect here. My maths predictions did however reconcile to my text books when applied to larger CCD formats. So the above is a lot better than the text book says it should be???? Maybe the book is wrong?

The camera was 89" from the focal plane in my test shots.

Kind Regards

Ben

Stephen Armour · September 30th, 2007, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Butler

Hi,

I am sure I remember reading somewhere that the HVR-V1 outputs from HDMI at 1440.

Are we sure about this? The camera thinks it is outputing at 1920 and Vegas also thinks the files received are 1920. I dont have Ciniform doing any re-sizing.

Am I correct in drawing the pleasent conclusion that the camera is actually doing full HD @ 1920x1080?....
Ben

Ask David Newman in the "CineForm Software Showcase" (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=76). If anyone knows for sure, he does.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · September 30th, 2007, 08:27 AM

IIRC, it's 1440 x 1080

Stephen Armour · October 1st, 2007, 11:20 AM

It's 1440 at the CMOS sensor level, but 1920x1080 4:2:2 8-bit up-sampled for the HDMI output.

Here's more from David Taylor at Cineform:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....16&postcount=2

September 26th, 2007, 10:12 AM	#1
Ben Butler New Boot Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Nantwich, Cheshire - UK Posts: 10	HDMI & V1E - Output Problems Hi, I have read the Owners Manual and am none the wiser. Here is what I have: V1E <-> 10M HDMI <-> Cable Extender <-> 10M HDMI <-> BlackMagic + Ciniform I am receiving no video or sonud singal on the PC in either Ciniform software of BlackMagic software. I have checked the cables and everything is pluged in, extender in the right way around, drivers installed on PC and Hardware manager shows devices working ok and done the obvious turning camera on and off, tried with camera mode set both recording and not recording. I am probably doing something dumb, but it has been a faught day and I am strugling to see where the above is going wrong. Unfortunatly I do not have a monitor with HDMI input nor a HDMI to DVi cable to plug it into the montior I do have. So I cant remove the PC out of the equation. I am going to try plugging in the camera in place of the cable extender and seeing if that makes any difference but I am not expecting miracles. Can someone point be in the direction of the light switch and remove my blinkers. Many thanks. Kind Regards Ben

September 26th, 2007, 11:45 AM	#3
Ben Butler New Boot Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Nantwich, Cheshire - UK Posts: 10	Check Status ??? Hi, Check Status is reporting: HMDI OUTPUT 720x576P Even through the camera is set for HD1080 and the component is set 1080/576 (which does correctly report). Very odd. The Intensity card does not support copy protection as far as I know. Kind Regards Ben

September 26th, 2007, 04:56 PM	#4
Ben Butler New Boot Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Nantwich, Cheshire - UK Posts: 10	HDMI / Ciniform Capture Working Hi, Well the F-Up farries have been out again - for no desernable reason other than to get me to carry everything back down stairs again and plonk it within cable distance of the AV cable to test that. Everything is now working with the HDMI and cables + exteneder at 1920x1080i output being reported by check status (although I understand its not really 1920 but 1440???). Capturing in Ciniform is working - the only thing I have changed is to go from Ciniform 1.4 to 1.6 but I swear it was still not working after I did that until I carried camera and cables down to PC. For anyone that is interested - Capture PC is: Duo Core 2 3.0GHz 1333MHz FSB - 2GB DDR3 1333MHz - 4x750GB SATA2 HD + Adapatec controller in RAID10 for capture data (giving 1.4TB of usable storage) + another 750GB HD for OS and another 750GB HD for applications - with twin ATi 1950XL Pro using crossfire. Capture via Intensity Pro and Cineform NEO HD at HD1080 25PsF 8 bit 4:2:2. Capture/Edit PC is at desk work area 20 meters from Camera with two HDMI cables with extender. I can control the start/stop of capture + monitor (limited quality display) via a laptop next to camera using wireless and RDP to connect back to capture PC. It is not as nice as having anothe set of HDMI cables + HD screen but does work well enough not to buy one just yet. V1E is fitted with M2 & Nikon. I will post exmaples in due course. Kind regards Ben

September 28th, 2007, 02:48 PM	#6
Ben Butler New Boot Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Nantwich, Cheshire - UK Posts: 10	1920 or 1440 ??? + first images Hi, I am sure I remember reading somewhere that the HVR-V1 outputs from HDMI at 1440. Are we sure about this? The camera thinks it is outputing at 1920 and Vegas also thinks the files received are 1920. I dont have Ciniform doing any re-sizing. Am I correct in drawing the pleasent conclusion that the camera is actually doing full HD @ 1920x1080? You can find some initial still 24bit BMP captures here - these were all taken at constant distance and illumination at the lowest f number for each lens. HDMI 25P converted in ciniform to intermeidate codec at film scan quality and dropped to 24P + fliped 24 MM f2.8 AI - Nikon Nikkor 28 MM f2.8 AIs - Nikon Nikkor 50 MM f1.8 AIs - Nikon Nikkor 85 MM f2.0 AIs - Nikon Nikkor 105 MM f2.5 AI - Nikon Nikkor 135 MM f2.8 AI - Nikon Nikkor 180 MM f2.8 AI - Nikon Nikkor 80-@200 MM f4.0 AIs - Nikon Nikkor @80-200 MM f4.0 AIs - Nikon Nikkor I am looking at lens angle in the above because I dont beleive my own calculated lens angles from the trig with .25" CCD so thought I would do it impirically and work it back the other way. http://vancouver.dfa.me.uk/captures/ Kind Regards Ben

September 28th, 2007, 05:05 PM	#7
Ben Butler New Boot Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Nantwich, Cheshire - UK Posts: 10	Lens Angles Hi, For completeness, I have calculated the lens angles from the previous shots to be: mm h v 24 57.79 32.50 28 50.49 28.40 50 28.14 15.83 85 15.99 8.99 105 11.81 6.64 135 8.50 4.78 Which is a lot better than my results for my original formula based approach based on a 0.25" CCD - maybe the M2 lens has an effect here. My maths predictions did however reconcile to my text books when applied to larger CCD formats. So the above is a lot better than the text book says it should be???? Maybe the book is wrong? The camera was 89" from the focal plane in my test shots. Kind Regards Ben

September 26th, 2007, 11:06 AM	#2
Seth Bloombaum Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,420	When I tested HDMI output from the (V1U) camera to an HDMI monitor, it was just a simple matter of plugging it in and watching it work! There might be more experience on the Cineform forum here at DVInfo, David Newman of Cineform frequently posts there and they have tested your workflow (at least with 60i/30p/24p, maybe not PAL). All I can suggest is trying it with just a 10m cable (no extender), and if that isn't working, a shorter cable. Be aware that any HDMI gear you want to use for this needs to support HDCP (the copy protection standard), or, your camera will sense no HDCP and will send a resolution-degraded signal down the line. So, if either of your cables or the extender doesn't support HDCP you may be working at a resolution that the BM Intensity or Cineform doesn't support. Also, I'd guess that the camera should be turned on last. I wish I had some direct experience with your setup, I'm hopeful of shooting some green screen in a couple months using that workflow. Let us know how it goes.

September 26th, 2007, 06:54 PM	#5
Seth Bloombaum Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,420	Ben, glad it's working. When the camera status reported HDMI at 720x576P it is very likely that the camera thought HDCP was not supported. I'd expect that it wasn't the carrying up and down stairs, but the connect/reconnect/repowering sequences that convinced the camera that HDCP was supported, so, it started sending full resolution. I do look forward to seeing the results!

September 30th, 2007, 08:27 AM	#9
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	IIRC, it's 1440 x 1080 __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

October 1st, 2007, 11:20 AM	#10
Stephen Armour Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Natal, RN, Brasil Posts: 900	It's 1440 at the CMOS sensor level, but 1920x1080 4:2:2 8-bit up-sampled for the HDMI output. Here's more from David Taylor at Cineform: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....16&postcount=2 __________________ http://lightinaction.org "All in the view of the LION"