Sony HC1 Cineframe Rocks at DVinfo.net

Albert Henson · December 22nd, 2005, 12:15 AM

I was goofing around with my hc1 the other day, and I turned the cineframe option on. I must say that I was suprised at how excellent the pictures behavior was. I would definately say it is in the in the same league as any of the prosumer 24p formats out there. Even though it is technically 24f, whatever that means. Anyhow. Overall other than the small size of the camera (which would be a selling point to many), and the bottom loading tape, I have to admit I am quite happy with my purchase. I tested a tape with footage gathered with a jvc hd100 in 720p hdv by playing it in the hc1 and it played back perfectly. Even downcoverts the hd footage to pristine DV. On the other hand the JVC would not playback the 1080i footage gathered with the hc1, fx1, or z1 cameras. This is the perfect camera for a 2nd unit camera to the z1, that can also be used as a playback deck. Definately will be sticking with Sony in the future. If other owners of the hc1 can try out the cineframe mode, and let me know your thoughts, I'd like to confirm that my observations are indeed not too good to be true.

Rodi Kaya · December 22nd, 2005, 10:32 AM

I cant find that option in my camera Albert, its gotto be somewhere there !

Boyd Ostroff · December 22nd, 2005, 10:38 AM

Here's a link to Adam Wilt's article about how Cineframe works, in case you're interested: http://adamwilt.com/HDV/cineframe.html

Albert Henson · December 22nd, 2005, 12:03 PM

you can access the cineframe feature under the effects touch panel. The effects option is not part of the default options, and would need to be added to the access menus. Use the intital menu screen to get to it. It's in there with a few of the less desirable cheese effects like sepia and mosaic. I think you will indeed find the cineframe most definately worth while to look at and use.

Carlos Rodriguez · December 22nd, 2005, 12:57 PM

Is that really officially cineframe? just curious, because I've seen dv cams, even D8 cams that also list a "cinema effect"

Albert Henson · December 22nd, 2005, 02:11 PM

i believe it is. At least it is what it claims in the manual. On other forums the cineframe in the hc1 is also discussed. I haven't seen the cinema effect in too many other cameras myself. At least not one that works this well.

Hse Kha · December 22nd, 2005, 08:54 PM

It is 30fps or "24"fps?

Mark Bryant · December 23rd, 2005, 02:48 AM

It is confusing, as there is no mode actually called "Cineframe" on the HC1. There is on it's A1 cousin.
The HC1 has an option called "Cinema effect". It's been reported that this is the same as Cineframe but I'm not sure. On the A1, the NTSC version has a choice of 24p or 30p, the PAL is 25p. I've seen reports that the HC1 Cinema effect is 24p on the NTSC model (and 25p on PAL).

I must admit I haven't tried it yet.

Mark

Phil Hamilton · December 26th, 2005, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bryant

It is confusing, as there is no mode actually called "Cineframe" on the HC1. There is on it's A1 cousin.
The HC1 has an option called "Cinema effect". It's been reported that this is the same as Cineframe but I'm not sure. On the A1, the NTSC version has a choice of 24p or 30p, the PAL is 25p. I've seen reports that the HC1 Cinema effect is 24p on the NTSC model (and 25p on PAL).

Mark

I would like some confirmation of this too. I am under the impression the Cineframe 24p is different than this video effect in the HC1 called Cinema Effect. It looks interesting though but for post production in Vegas 6.0c I sure would like to know the details before shooting extensively in that only to find that I have created more of a problem then eliminating steps. tks

Jeff Zimmerman · December 26th, 2005, 01:10 PM

Here's a pretty good article about Cineframe and hwo to smooth your images out.

http://www.cineform.com/products/Son.../CineFrame.htm

Paul Cascio · December 28th, 2005, 08:13 AM

Also, are there any benefits in picture quality if DVD is my detination? Will the DVD be in a progressive format, if there is such a thing. Or will it be different than if I shot and edited in 60i?

Thanks. I hope these are stupid questions.

Laurence Kingston · December 29th, 2005, 11:21 PM

Cineframe 24p isn't that great unless you capture using the Cineform HDLink program using the special 24p pulldown removal capture mode. The Adam Wilt article was written before this was available I believe. In any case, Cineframe 24 captured with HDLink in the pulldown removal mode actually gives you pretty good 24p.

Albert Henson · December 30th, 2005, 11:01 AM

The footage in the cinema mode is equivelant is a default 30f cineframe setting. They don't call it cineframe, because the frame modes aren't adjustable. So officially it's not cineframe, but only one aspect of it. But not a bad one at that.

Graham Hickling · January 26th, 2006, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert Henson

The footage in the cinema mode is equivalent to a default 30f cineframe setting.

Albert, at least on my HC1, that is not the case! To verify this, try loading a clip into Virtualdub, select "deinterlace/fields-side-by-side" in the filter menu, and then step through the footage frame by frame - you will see there's a pattern of repeated and non-repeated fields.

It looks suspiciously like Cineframe24! ... I will try extracting it with the Cineform 24p option and report back on what I find.

Also, I notice that when cinema mode is selected the ability to adjust exposure becomes disabled. I don't know if this is how Cineframe works on the A1, but I thought that was rather disappointing.

Graham Hickling · January 26th, 2006, 10:41 PM

Yep, it sure seems to be CF24!

Capturing "Cinema mode" footage from the HC1 using Cineform's HDLink, with "remove 3:2 pulldown" checked, produces smooth 23.976fps progressive footage.

Footage captured without that option checked stutters (verified in Vdub as described above).

December 22nd, 2005, 12:15 AM	#1
Albert Henson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 65	Sony HC1 Cineframe Rocks I was goofing around with my hc1 the other day, and I turned the cineframe option on. I must say that I was suprised at how excellent the pictures behavior was. I would definately say it is in the in the same league as any of the prosumer 24p formats out there. Even though it is technically 24f, whatever that means. Anyhow. Overall other than the small size of the camera (which would be a selling point to many), and the bottom loading tape, I have to admit I am quite happy with my purchase. I tested a tape with footage gathered with a jvc hd100 in 720p hdv by playing it in the hc1 and it played back perfectly. Even downcoverts the hd footage to pristine DV. On the other hand the JVC would not playback the 1080i footage gathered with the hc1, fx1, or z1 cameras. This is the perfect camera for a 2nd unit camera to the z1, that can also be used as a playback deck. Definately will be sticking with Sony in the future. If other owners of the hc1 can try out the cineframe mode, and let me know your thoughts, I'd like to confirm that my observations are indeed not too good to be true.

December 22nd, 2005, 10:32 AM	#2
Rodi Kaya New Boot Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 9	I cant find that option in my camera Albert, its gotto be somewhere there ! __________________ www.rodikaya.co.uk

December 22nd, 2005, 12:57 PM	#5
Carlos Rodriguez Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Modesto, California Posts: 206	cineframe Is that really officially cineframe? just curious, because I've seen dv cams, even D8 cams that also list a "cinema effect"

December 26th, 2005, 01:10 PM	#10
Jeff Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Brighton, Colorado Posts: 386	Cineframe Article Here's a pretty good article about Cineframe and hwo to smooth your images out. http://www.cineform.com/products/Son.../CineFrame.htm

December 28th, 2005, 08:13 AM	#11
Paul Cascio Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bristol, CT (Home of EPSN) Posts: 1,192	What would the workflow be from Cineframe to DVD? Also, are there any benefits in picture quality if DVD is my detination? Will the DVD be in a progressive format, if there is such a thing. Or will it be different than if I shot and edited in 60i? Thanks. I hope these are stupid questions. __________________ Paul Cascio www.pictureframingschool.com

December 22nd, 2005, 10:38 AM	#3
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	Here's a link to Adam Wilt's article about how Cineframe works, in case you're interested: http://adamwilt.com/HDV/cineframe.html

December 22nd, 2005, 12:03 PM	#4
Albert Henson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 65	you can access the cineframe feature under the effects touch panel. The effects option is not part of the default options, and would need to be added to the access menus. Use the intital menu screen to get to it. It's in there with a few of the less desirable cheese effects like sepia and mosaic. I think you will indeed find the cineframe most definately worth while to look at and use.

December 22nd, 2005, 02:11 PM	#6
Albert Henson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 65	i believe it is. At least it is what it claims in the manual. On other forums the cineframe in the hc1 is also discussed. I haven't seen the cinema effect in too many other cameras myself. At least not one that works this well.

December 22nd, 2005, 08:54 PM	#7
Hse Kha Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New England Posts: 195	It is 30fps or "24"fps?

December 23rd, 2005, 02:48 AM	#8
Mark Bryant Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Bath, England Posts: 119	It is confusing, as there is no mode actually called "Cineframe" on the HC1. There is on it's A1 cousin. The HC1 has an option called "Cinema effect". It's been reported that this is the same as Cineframe but I'm not sure. On the A1, the NTSC version has a choice of 24p or 30p, the PAL is 25p. I've seen reports that the HC1 Cinema effect is 24p on the NTSC model (and 25p on PAL). I must admit I haven't tried it yet. Mark

December 29th, 2005, 11:21 PM	#12
Laurence Kingston Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Clermont, FL. Posts: 941	Cineframe 24p isn't that great unless you capture using the Cineform HDLink program using the special 24p pulldown removal capture mode. The Adam Wilt article was written before this was available I believe. In any case, Cineframe 24 captured with HDLink in the pulldown removal mode actually gives you pretty good 24p.

December 30th, 2005, 11:01 AM	#13
Albert Henson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 65	The footage in the cinema mode is equivelant is a default 30f cineframe setting. They don't call it cineframe, because the frame modes aren't adjustable. So officially it's not cineframe, but only one aspect of it. But not a bad one at that.

January 26th, 2006, 10:41 PM	#15
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Yep, it sure seems to be CF24! Capturing "Cinema mode" footage from the HC1 using Cineform's HDLink, with "remove 3:2 pulldown" checked, produces smooth 23.976fps progressive footage. Footage captured without that option checked stutters (verified in Vdub as described above).