Sony HVR-A1U--My view.

Alexander Karol · August 8th, 2005, 12:54 AM

Thanks for the price comparisons. It helps to see it in perspective like that.

Regarding the firmware enhancements you have mentioned, I don't see a lot of difference. Something that stands out is DVCAM (which I don't see a big deal about it), CineGamma and CF24/30. Other than that, the features look quite similar to the HC1.

If the price is indeed $2700, I will probably go for the A1 as I feel will be ideal for someone who wants to have the professional options while at the same time being able to "convert" it into a compact travel camcorder.

I would not pay $3500 for it, as I feel I would benefit more from the FX1. Some concerns that I have is the lack of manual gain. I also despise the idea of not being able to know the aperture and gain settings while recording (only through playback). I also wish SONY would have included a 250k LCD screen on the A1. Other than that, it seems it might be worth the money.

I am really concerned about the rolling shutter effect that I previously mentioned. I am dying to see if this effect is present in the A1U. Hopefully Douglas will be able to test for it before he returns the A1U.

Alexander Karol · August 8th, 2005, 03:24 AM

I came across this site while surfing the net today:

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...p=141&id=80897

Looks like the official list price is $3100. Hopefully the $2700 stree price is not unfeasible.

Douglas, you mentioned that it lacks B&W EVF? On the site it shows it as a feature. Could it be a pre-production thing?

Also, I love the fact that it has true 24P recording ability...sweet.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · August 8th, 2005, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander Karol

I came across this site while surfing the net today:

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...p=141&id=80897

Looks like the official list price is $3100. Hopefully the $2700 stree price is not unfeasible.

Douglas, you mentioned that it lacks B&W EVF? On the site it shows it as a feature. Could it be a pre-production thing?

Also, I love the fact that it has true 24P recording ability...sweet.

Could well be that it's a preproduction/prototype thing, because on this camera, you notice I didn't talk about DVCAM much, except to say "It does it." DVCAM shows up in the menu, but I can't record to it. There is no B/W VF on this one, menu or otherwise. However, it doesn't shoot 24p, it shoots CF24.

Alexander Karol · August 8th, 2005, 10:40 AM

On that website, under highlights it says:

60i/30frame/sec, 24 frame/sec with 2:3 pulldown switchable

isn't the 2:3 pulldown basically true 24p?

Douglas, where to able to test the rolling shutter effect that I mentioned? I'm wanting to know if it will still be present on the A1U.

Boyd Ostroff · August 8th, 2005, 12:19 PM

I agree that's confusing, but I'm sure this is the "cineframe" feature that the FX1 and Z1 have. Look on the specs page, it says: "Scanning System: 1080.60i", and also note the wording under the features tab: "CineFrame™ and Cinematone™ functions for cinema like recordings (30F/24F)"

Jeremy Rochefort · August 8th, 2005, 02:42 PM

A lot has been said about the Cineframe modes of the latest Sony cameras.

I have decided to do some testing myself and have been VERY pleased with the results, as well as my customers. I also worried about the fact the having no progressive mode on the HDV cams would be a disadvantage.

If the CMOS chip on the A1 is what its made out to be, then the A1 would definitely be advantageous for many options - even as a B roll cam.

I screwed up my own logic by getting a FX1 first and THEN hunted for a B roll camera and wound up getting the Z1! Now hows that for logic! I will admit that I am definitelt not sorry and from what we are hearing about it, the A1 would definitely be a good second choice.

If memory serves me correctly, I think DSE and his team have more than one Z1 and having an A1 would make sense.

Seems Douglas has some work on his hands:) - any news yet on the A1/Z1 comparison??

Cheers

Douglas Spotted Eagle · August 8th, 2005, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander Karol

On that website, under highlights it says:

60i/30frame/sec, 24 frame/sec with 2:3 pulldown switchable

isn't the 2:3 pulldown basically true 24p?

Douglas, where to able to test the rolling shutter effect that I mentioned? I'm wanting to know if it will still be present on the A1U.

I haven't. By the time I saw your post, I'm already at WEVA, and given the cam back for the night, but I'll have it again tomorrow, and will try. How is it that you're seeing the rolling shutter?

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · August 8th, 2005, 09:36 PM

if you are looking for rolling shutter, just shoot something with vertical lines passing front of the camera......
there, if it is present, you will notice it instantly....

Alexander Karol · August 9th, 2005, 12:39 AM

Boyd, I don't understand why that would be listed twice on the features page unless it were separate features. They specifically list it 24 frames/sec with 2:3 pulldown and then separately they list CineFrame, etc.

Yes DSE, just shoot something vertical that is moving across the camera and you should notice it.

Boyd Ostroff · August 9th, 2005, 03:47 AM

Well feel free to believe what you like. Sony doesn't claim it's 24p, they say "24f" and they say it uses interlaced CCD's. I don't think the pulldown has anything to do with it, you need progressive CCD's to shoot 24p. They're simulating 24p. This topic has been discussed at great length with regard to the FX1 and Z1. Here's an article on Adam Wilt's site:

http://adamwilt.com/HDV/cineframe.html

Alexander Karol · August 9th, 2005, 10:23 AM

Hmmmm....I thought the HC1/A1U sensor was progressive...read for yourself:

http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasia/001840

"The CMOS imaging sensor has roughly 3.8 times as many pixels as the 1/6-inch design used in the firm's DCR-PC1000 SDTV camcorder released in March 2005, and pixel pitch is about 2.35£gm. The new model can shoot 1080p at 60 frames/s, converting the imagery into 1080i at 60 fields/s."

Thomas Smet · August 9th, 2005, 10:59 AM

Very interesting....

Was the article wrong or do they know something we do not?

Alexander Karol · August 10th, 2005, 12:03 AM

Well, I don't think so. This is the second article from an Asian source that states that. I can't find the other url, but I know it is out there...

Boyd Ostroff · August 10th, 2005, 04:00 AM

This is all very interesting, and I have no idea where the truth lies. But if the camera is indeed progressive, don't you think it's odd that Sony isn't touting this as a selling point? Their own brochure says it's 1080i and 24f. Other manufacturers who are using true progressive scan CCD's (XL2, DVX100) have made this very clear.

Now since the A1 and HC1 can also take high res still photos, I assume there must be some way to progressively scan the CCD in order to do this. That isn't the same as being able to shoot 30p video however. Just look at the PDX-10 - it shoots high res stills in progressive mode, but can't do this for video. Or the PD-150 which also shoots progressive stills, and can even shoot 15 fps progressive video but not 30p.

Alexander, I was just looking at the "highlights" page you mentioned earlier, "They specifically list it 24 frames/sec with 2:3 pulldown". Personally, I think you have taken this out of context - you aren't quoting the full text of what Sony claims. The exact quote is: "60i/30frame/sec, 24 frame/sec with 2:3 pulldown switchable."

You left out the important first part: 60i/30frame/sec. I think this should be interpreted as meaning:

60i/30frame/sec

or

60i/24frame/sec

And the significant thing is the use of the "i" and "frame"

But perhaps DSE or someone who really knows the truth about all this can provide a definitive answer. The A1 does look like a very interesting product. (but I'm still glad I got a Z1 :-)

Alexander Karol · August 10th, 2005, 10:27 AM

Boyd, I do agree with you that it is quite unclear when looking at the "highlights" list. I just don't know why they would list it separately. But I guess you are right.

However, regarding the progressive chip, the answer is simple: product differentiation. If the HC1/A1U was released with the ability to record in progressive, who in their right minds would by the FX1? The feature would also be given for "free" for the price that the HC1 is being sold at. I am sure they are waiting for later models to integrate that ability into.

I don't understand SONY sometimes, but I believe that those articles are indeed true.

August 8th, 2005, 02:42 PM	#36
Jeremy Rochefort Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Cape Town, SA Posts: 159	A lot has been said about the Cineframe modes of the latest Sony cameras. I have decided to do some testing myself and have been VERY pleased with the results, as well as my customers. I also worried about the fact the having no progressive mode on the HDV cams would be a disadvantage. If the CMOS chip on the A1 is what its made out to be, then the A1 would definitely be advantageous for many options - even as a B roll cam. I screwed up my own logic by getting a FX1 first and THEN hunted for a B roll camera and wound up getting the Z1! Now hows that for logic! I will admit that I am definitelt not sorry and from what we are hearing about it, the A1 would definitely be a good second choice. If memory serves me correctly, I think DSE and his team have more than one Z1 and having an A1 would make sense. Seems Douglas has some work on his hands:) - any news yet on the A1/Z1 comparison?? Cheers __________________ MJ Productions Never let the need for money outweigh the need for Quality, Friendly and Professional Service

August 8th, 2005, 12:54 AM	#31
Alexander Karol Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 198	Thanks for the price comparisons. It helps to see it in perspective like that. Regarding the firmware enhancements you have mentioned, I don't see a lot of difference. Something that stands out is DVCAM (which I don't see a big deal about it), CineGamma and CF24/30. Other than that, the features look quite similar to the HC1. If the price is indeed $2700, I will probably go for the A1 as I feel will be ideal for someone who wants to have the professional options while at the same time being able to "convert" it into a compact travel camcorder. I would not pay $3500 for it, as I feel I would benefit more from the FX1. Some concerns that I have is the lack of manual gain. I also despise the idea of not being able to know the aperture and gain settings while recording (only through playback). I also wish SONY would have included a 250k LCD screen on the A1. Other than that, it seems it might be worth the money. I am really concerned about the rolling shutter effect that I previously mentioned. I am dying to see if this effect is present in the A1U. Hopefully Douglas will be able to test for it before he returns the A1U.

August 8th, 2005, 03:24 AM	#32
Alexander Karol Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 198	I came across this site while surfing the net today: http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...p=141&id=80897 Looks like the official list price is $3100. Hopefully the $2700 stree price is not unfeasible. Douglas, you mentioned that it lacks B&W EVF? On the site it shows it as a feature. Could it be a pre-production thing? Also, I love the fact that it has true 24P recording ability...sweet.

August 8th, 2005, 10:40 AM	#34
Alexander Karol Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 198	On that website, under highlights it says: 60i/30frame/sec, 24 frame/sec with 2:3 pulldown switchable isn't the 2:3 pulldown basically true 24p? Douglas, where to able to test the rolling shutter effect that I mentioned? I'm wanting to know if it will still be present on the A1U.

August 8th, 2005, 12:19 PM	#35
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	I agree that's confusing, but I'm sure this is the "cineframe" feature that the FX1 and Z1 have. Look on the specs page, it says: "Scanning System: 1080.60i", and also note the wording under the features tab: "CineFrame™ and Cinematone™ functions for cinema like recordings (30F/24F)"

August 8th, 2005, 09:36 PM	#38
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	if you are looking for rolling shutter, just shoot something with vertical lines passing front of the camera...... there, if it is present, you will notice it instantly....

August 9th, 2005, 12:39 AM	#39
Alexander Karol Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 198	Boyd, I don't understand why that would be listed twice on the features page unless it were separate features. They specifically list it 24 frames/sec with 2:3 pulldown and then separately they list CineFrame, etc. Yes DSE, just shoot something vertical that is moving across the camera and you should notice it.

August 9th, 2005, 03:47 AM	#40
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	Well feel free to believe what you like. Sony doesn't claim it's 24p, they say "24f" and they say it uses interlaced CCD's. I don't think the pulldown has anything to do with it, you need progressive CCD's to shoot 24p. They're simulating 24p. This topic has been discussed at great length with regard to the FX1 and Z1. Here's an article on Adam Wilt's site: http://adamwilt.com/HDV/cineframe.html

August 9th, 2005, 10:23 AM	#41
Alexander Karol Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 198	Hmmmm....I thought the HC1/A1U sensor was progressive...read for yourself: http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasia/001840 "The CMOS imaging sensor has roughly 3.8 times as many pixels as the 1/6-inch design used in the firm's DCR-PC1000 SDTV camcorder released in March 2005, and pixel pitch is about 2.35£gm. The new model can shoot 1080p at 60 frames/s, converting the imagery into 1080i at 60 fields/s."

August 9th, 2005, 10:59 AM	#42
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Very interesting.... Was the article wrong or do they know something we do not?

August 10th, 2005, 12:03 AM	#43
Alexander Karol Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 198	Well, I don't think so. This is the second article from an Asian source that states that. I can't find the other url, but I know it is out there...

August 10th, 2005, 04:00 AM	#44
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	This is all very interesting, and I have no idea where the truth lies. But if the camera is indeed progressive, don't you think it's odd that Sony isn't touting this as a selling point? Their own brochure says it's 1080i and 24f. Other manufacturers who are using true progressive scan CCD's (XL2, DVX100) have made this very clear. Now since the A1 and HC1 can also take high res still photos, I assume there must be some way to progressively scan the CCD in order to do this. That isn't the same as being able to shoot 30p video however. Just look at the PDX-10 - it shoots high res stills in progressive mode, but can't do this for video. Or the PD-150 which also shoots progressive stills, and can even shoot 15 fps progressive video but not 30p. Alexander, I was just looking at the "highlights" page you mentioned earlier, "They specifically list it 24 frames/sec with 2:3 pulldown". Personally, I think you have taken this out of context - you aren't quoting the full text of what Sony claims. The exact quote is: "60i/30frame/sec, 24 frame/sec with 2:3 pulldown switchable." You left out the important first part: 60i/30frame/sec. I think this should be interpreted as meaning: 60i/30frame/sec or 60i/24frame/sec And the significant thing is the use of the "i" and "frame" But perhaps DSE or someone who really knows the truth about all this can provide a definitive answer. The A1 does look like a very interesting product. (but I'm still glad I got a Z1 :-)

August 10th, 2005, 10:27 AM	#45
Alexander Karol Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 198	Boyd, I do agree with you that it is quite unclear when looking at the "highlights" list. I just don't know why they would list it separately. But I guess you are right. However, regarding the progressive chip, the answer is simple: product differentiation. If the HC1/A1U was released with the ability to record in progressive, who in their right minds would by the FX1? The feature would also be given for "free" for the price that the HC1 is being sold at. I am sure they are waiting for later models to integrate that ability into. I don't understand SONY sometimes, but I believe that those articles are indeed true.