Is your HVR-DR60 stealing disk space from you?

[Brent Kolitz]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Brent, I'm looking forward to this info...Also, can you tell us how noisy the DR60 drive is - when mounted on the cold shoe, does the mic catch the spinning noise?

Piotr,

Echoing was DSE said, although I haven't had a chance to put on headphones and scrutinize any sound leakage into my recording, the DR60 is essentially silent, even with your ear right up to it, in a quiet room, and with no tape running in the camera. Really, really silent -- I think I can pick up an incredibly faint whir with my ear right on it, but I'm relatively young and have good hearing. Basically, it's a non-issue.

Brent

[Brent Kolitz]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Both DR 60's I own are silent, it's difficult to know when they're even running.
Project today recorded full on one at 4:37, the other reported full at 4:48.
I'm very uncomfortable pushing the drive past 4 hours, regardless.

DSE -- what accounts for the 11 minute difference? Did one project have substantially more starts/stops and therefore more of the "extra" index files the DR60 creates? If so, it would be interesting to compare filling up the DR60 with one shot, versus filling it up by doing 4+ hours of 1-minute interval recording. (Well, maybe not interesting enough to bother trying this experiment, but it would be mildly enlightening.)

Brent

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Remember that the filesize is dependent on content, hence the term "average." I think you're looking for black and white answers in an interframe world. You won't find them. HDV frame sizes are relative to previous and post frame information.

Last night, I recorded the DR60 with a mic much more sensitive than my ears, and the very faint "whine" I hear with the device stuck next to my ear seems to sit right around 8K, and very, very quiet. I can hear it if the drive is sitting tight against my ear, but the on-cam mic doesn't hear it, and it's inaudible (I'm not so young and don't have awesome hearing any longer) at a distance of a few inches.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Last night, I recorded the DR60 with a mic much more sensitive than my ears, and the very faint "whine" I hear with the device stuck next to my ear seems to sit right around 8K, and very, very quiet. I can hear it if the drive is sitting tight against my ear, but the on-cam mic doesn't hear it, and it's inaudible (I'm not so young and don't have awesome hearing any longer) at a distance of a few inches.

Nevertheless, I suspect that depriving the V1 of an on-board mic, as well as providing a rather muffled shotgun and XLR section, could all be made on purpose - with the DR60 in mind. I'm using a much more sensitive on-camera microphone, and am afraid it will be catching this whine - however subtle it is.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Nevertheless, I suspect that depriving the V1 of an on-board mic, as well as providing a rather muffled shotgun and XLR section, could all be made on purpose - with the DR60 in mind. I'm using a much more sensitive on-camera microphone, and am afraid it will be catching this whine - however subtle it is.

The "XLR section" is not at all "muffled" and I'd ask you to demonstrate otherwise. The included microphone is not "muffled" and I'd appreciate you also demonstrating otherwise. It is indeed, a low-grade microphone, but it does have a reasonably flat response in the mid ranges. It's a mic that might cost you $200.00 at best if you were to buy it off the shelf. The ECM-NV1 has been bundled with camcorders since the PD170, and this is the first report I can find on the web that it's "muffled." While I've not put the V1 against the Z1, Sony A1, Canon A1, Canon H1 nor JVC HD100 on test equipment to measure signals, I also cannot/do not perceive any significant differences between any of the HDV camcorder audio sections.

There is not a prayer of a chance that you'll ever encounter a recording environment that is more quiet than the DR60, unless you're shooting in an anechoic chamber. All that said, you've got significantly greater worries when using any on-camera microphone, than picking up a very quiet whir that every HDD device has. The XDCAM HD machines are louder than the DR60 is. Just yesterday, I compared the two. And both XDCAM HD and DR60 are incredibly quiet by comparison to a tape mechanism.
In other words, your tape mechanism generates significantly greater noise product than a DR60 HDD system. Which "much more sensitive mic" are you using that would pick up the DR60 but not hear your tape mechanism?

You've made a huge accusation in saying Sony deliberately short-changed the audio features on the V1 to support the DR60. I'd very much appreciate specific evidence of your assertion. I'll wager everyone here would appreciate demonstrable evidence that the V1 has a "muffled mic and XLR section."

[Piotr Wozniacki]

I have bought the V1 as the camera of choice, after a couple of months testing it against the competitors - and you're accusing me of a "conspiracy" against it?!!

Let me explain that I'm using a very hot, stereo mic (Edirol CS-50) and - being about to purchase the DR60 - have been wondering whether putting it on the shoe will be OK, or if I should be buying the VCT-1BP bracket and mounting the drive at the camera back (as far as possible from the mic). That's it.

Your comment about other mechanisms being louder that the DR60 is irrelevant, as none of them is designed to work in such a close vicinity of a microphone.

And as for evidence, please see this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=87566. One can clearly see that I'm not the only one to find the ECM-NV1 and/or XLR section output relatively low. In particular, here is what Bob has to say on it: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....87&postcount=9

[Brent Kolitz]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

I have bought the V1 as the camera of choice, after a couple of months testing it against the competitors - and you're accusing me of a "conspiracy" against it?!

I don't happen to know Piotr personally, but it always catches my eye how his signature includes "Sony V1E - tested & chosen." To me, that sounds like he's rather proud of his camera, but what do I know.

I think we can all agree that even our favorite toys (and/or professional tools), now matter how well-designed and well-engineered, always fall short in some areas. Dare I say that some of my favorite gadgets shine in many areas but outright SUCK in others. This, however, does not imply that I don't like the gadgets, spend my money on them and their accessories, and support their manufacturers.

In my opinion, Sony does not have the market cornered on making flawless products, with no annoyances or design compromises. Is the V1's mic section somehow "tailored" to not pick up DR60 noise? I don't know. But even if that were an engineering decision, does this imply a conspiracy? There are more important issues in the world that might indeed be conspiracies...

Piotr has a great question in wondering whether he should mount a DR60 on the coldshoe or on the VCT-1BP bracket -- a very valid question. I'm almost afraid to say that I was looking at the bracket, and man is it overpriced! Go ahead, shoot me for criticizing Sony's prices -- it's not like I didn't just give them a ton of money for the V1U and a slew of Sony-branded accessories. I might just pick up the VCT-1BP bracket too. ;-)

Brent

[Piotr Wozniacki]

I couldn't put it better, Brent. Well, I guess I'll be using the bracket whenever possible; in particular when shooting from a tripod with a light on the coldshoe. This will not only eliminate the slightest possibility of recording the noise (and there will be some after a year or two, as with any spinning mechanism), but also help balancing the whole rig.

In handheld situations, however, the bracket is out of question - hence my concern.

[Greg Quinn]

Piotr, my 0.02c worth after taking hours upon hours of footage for two projects with the DR60 is that I haven't noticed any noise issues with either the attached boom or with several different mics on a boom pole. The DR60 has transformed the way that I use the cam.
Greg

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Thanks, Greg - I'm hoping for the same experience!

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Piotr, there is a significant difference between "muffled" output being designed to not pick up all frequencies, and a low output mic.
The output of the V1 is no different than any other HDV camcorder.
The NV1 is a low sensitivity mic, no doubt. No one in their right mind would use it for any sound use outside of reference audio.
But there is a significant statement in saying that Sony designed the front end of the V1 to "muffle audio" so as to not hear the extremely quiet, very high-pitched sound of the DR60.
Many people read these forums, and as such, I expect you'll back up your claim that the V1 doesn't offer full frequency response.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Piotr, there is a significant difference between "muffled" output being designed to not pick up all frequencies, and a low output mic.
The output of the V1 is no different than any other HDV camcorder.
The NV1 is a low sensitivity mic, no doubt. No one in their right mind would use it for any sound use outside of reference audio.
But there is a significant statement in saying that Sony designed the front end of the V1 to "muffle audio" so as to not hear the extremely quiet, very high-pitched sound of the DR60.
Many people read these forums, and as such, I expect you'll back up your claim that the V1 doesn't offer full frequency response.

Douglas, I'd like to remind you English is not my first language, so it's possible I haven't used the best word to describe what I mean. If indeed "muffled" equals "not offering full frequency response", than it's not what I meant - the frequency response is no worse than with other cams; I only meant the output level is quite low. I guess that considering the context, all those many people you mention can understand my intentions correctly.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

For clarification, Piotr, you initially suggested that Sony designed the front end to be muffled, but now you're suggesting it's the output rather than input that is quite low? I'm confused.
I'm not trying to give you grief about the words you've used; after having read/edited/responded to several hundred of your posts, I believe your English is quite good. Simply put, I'd like to understand better what you're saying.

The input side of the camcorder is no different than the input section of any other HDV camcorder. The output section of the V1 is no different than any other HDV camcorder. The frequency response of the V1 is no different than any other HDV camcorder. The mic is indeed, not the most sensitive mic available by any stretch; most folks that would use an on-camera microphone would replace this lower-grade mic with a more sensitive mic, as you've said you've done. None of the HDV camcorders come with (what I'd consider) a sensitive or high quality mic.

Headphone impedance varies greatly, so if you've got a 600 ohm headphone vs a 75 ohm headphone for example, then you'll have very different monitoring levels. Low impedance headphones will sound louder from devices with low output voltages.
None of this discussion applies to recorded levels, which is what your original response seems to imply.

Back to point, I'd appreciate knowing of *any* instance where a tape mechanism is more quiet than a DR60. The camcorder itself generates quite a bit more noise than does the DR60.

If you're concerned about body-borne noise, the tape mechanism is even more likely to carry into the mic vs the HDD unit, as again, it's noticeably more loud.

[Bob Grant]

I can vouch for the fact that tape transports are way louder than the DR60, especially as they get older. I'd add zoom and focus motors, my clumsy paws on the camera and the sound of my breathing as well.
If you want to record the sounds of ants walking any mic plugged into any camera and mounted on the camera is not the way to do it.
Also the sensitivity of a mic has nothing to do with how much unwanted sound it'll pickup. Spacial and spectral response is what matters along with mechanical isolation.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

For clarification, Piotr, you initially suggested that Sony designed the front end to be muffled, but now you're suggesting it's the output rather than input that is quite low? I'm confused.
I'm not trying to give you grief about the words you've used; after having read/edited/responded to several hundred of your posts, I believe your English is quite good. Simply put, I'd like to understand better what you're saying.

The input side of the camcorder is no different than the input section of any other HDV camcorder. The output section of the V1 is no different than any other HDV camcorder. The frequency response of the V1 is no different than any other HDV camcorder. The mic is indeed, not the most sensitive mic available by any stretch; most folks that would use an on-camera microphone would replace this lower-grade mic with a more sensitive mic, as you've said you've done. None of the HDV camcorders come with (what I'd consider) a sensitive or high quality mic.

Headphone impedance varies greatly, so if you've got a 600 ohm headphone vs a 75 ohm headphone for example, then you'll have very different monitoring levels. Low impedance headphones will sound louder from devices with low output voltages.
None of this discussion applies to recorded levels, which is what your original response seems to imply.

Back to point, I'd appreciate knowing of *any* instance where a tape mechanism is more quiet than a DR60. The camcorder itself generates quite a bit more noise than does the DR60.

If you're concerned about body-borne noise, the tape mechanism is even more likely to carry into the mic vs the HDD unit, as again, it's noticeably more loud.

Douglas, while I'm not considerin the V1 sound THAT bad, I think you should take a look here:

http://www.aamserver.dnsalias.com/ba..._Audio(DV).htm

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