xdcamhd or dvcam dsr 450?

[Joao Duarte]

Hello there

I a cameraman/editor based in Lisbon....I would like to ask u some advices.I am about to buy a camera....Which model do u think I should invest on?xdcam hd or dvcam dsr 450?which one will last longer?Shooting in dv MODE which one has better picture quality..

many thanks

joao

[Nate Weaver]

Considering the 350 does everything the 450 does, except with 1/2" chips (that look so very close, in comparison), I'd think the 330/350 would be the choice here, given you have the budget for either.

[Vincent Rozenberg]

Originally Posted by Joao Duarte

which one will last longer?

In that case, the F350/330.

[Matthew Pugerude]

I would go with the XDcam 350. I have really enjoyed it and I like the look that it gives me. I will have to say that I have not used the 450. But I think that everything is going to be HD in the production world fairly soon if it is not already. I have not shot anything in SD in about 6 months of steady work. So I would say get the 350. 330 is a good camera to but it has a 4x3 VF which will not help you much in the 16X9 world. Like Nate Weaver said in his post "given you have the budget for either."

[Jeff Regan]

A DP who is a member of this forum, Philip Bloom, bought an F330 XDCAM HD, traded it in for an F350 and got tired of having to dub his XDCAM footage to
DVCAM for his clients at the end of the day, so he bought a DSR-450WS as well.

The point is to know what your client base wants as far as deliverables. No
question an HD camera has a better longterm time horizon than any SD camera.

The concern I have about the present XDCAM HD cameras with 1/2" CCD's,
35Mbps VBR, 4:2:0, single layer, is that at the end of the year we'll see the
2/3", 50Mbps VBR, 4:2:2, dual layer model. Price will be higher, no doubt, but
it will mean that the F30 and F70 decks will be limited and the long term viability of the F330 and F350 will come into question.

As a rental house, I don't want to invest in an F350 knowing the new model not only has larger CCD's, but a whole new record format as far as color space, bit rate and record capacity.

While I am not a fan of P2 cards and taking SD chipsets and making them
high def.(or 720p made into 1080i) as Panasonic is doing, there is a difference between 1/2" chips and 2/3" chips as far as DOF and possibly sensitivity.

I wouldn't make any purchase until I see what is announced at NAB, were I
you. Best of luck. By the way, I have a DSR-450WS and am very happy
with it. It's so inexpensive that it paid for itself within a year easily, not sure
the same can be said about HD camera packages, not even the current XDCAM HD models.

Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com

[Greg Penetrante]

Originally Posted by Jeff Regan

A DP who is a member of this forum, Philip Bloom, bought an F330 XDCAM HD, traded it in for an F350 and got tired of having to dub his XDCAM footage to
DVCAM for his clients at the end of the day, so he bought a DSR-450WS as well.

The point is to know what your client base wants as far as deliverables. No
question an HD camera has a better longterm time horizon than any SD camera.

The concern I have about the present XDCAM HD cameras with 1/2" CCD's,
35Mbps VBR, 4:2:0, single layer, is that at the end of the year we'll see the
2/3", 50Mbps VBR, 4:2:2, dual layer model. Price will be higher, no doubt, but
it will mean that the F30 and F70 decks will be limited and the long term viability of the F330 and F350 will come into question.

As a rental house, I don't want to invest in an F350 knowing the new model not only has larger CCD's, but a whole new record format as far as color space, bit rate and record capacity.

While I am not a fan of P2 cards and taking SD chipsets and making them
high def.(or 720p made into 1080i) as Panasonic is doing, there is a difference between 1/2" chips and 2/3" chips as far as DOF and possibly sensitivity.

I wouldn't make any purchase until I see what is announced at NAB, were I
you. Best of luck. By the way, I have a DSR-450WS and am very happy
with it. It's so inexpensive that it paid for itself within a year easily, not sure
the same can be said about HD camera packages, not even the current XDCAM HD models.

Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com

Good points by Jeff.

I just want to add to the mix what I've experienced with my clients. So far my clients tend to rent what's available now. And Right Now, XDCam HD is the only HD format to record on relatively inexpensive large capacity optical media -- the workflow advantages are huge compared to tape.

Everybody knows that better stuff will invariably show up. It always happens. The question is, what can one use now to improve one's image/workflow/profits?

My clients know about the advantages of 4:2:2 and 2/3" and DOF. But so far they've been very happy with XDCam HD in its current incarnation and with the products that the camera and I have been able to deliver.

I suspect that the price of a 2/3" XDCam HD will be double that of the F350 series now. And these "new" cameras will probably ship at the beginning of 2008 at the very least. From what I've read in the trades, production of blue-laser diodes will continue to be constrained for the forseeable future. This seems to be plenty of time to make good money wth the F350. Even after the release of the 2/3" stuff I still think the F350 will have lots of useful life left due to the possible 1/2" infrastructure advantages of less power consumption, less wight and cheaper glass.

best regards.

[Jeff Regan]

Greg,

I'm glad to hear that your F350 is working well for you and your clients. There is always something better on the horizon, and the days of domination by one format are over in the television industry.

My fear is that the new XDCAM 2/3" will find itself competing with HDCAM due
to its price point which will be more like Digital Betacam level. Judging by how
slow Sony was to come out with their Blu Ray player and dual layer movie releases, we may be lucky if we see the new XDCAM models deliver by Q1 of 2008.

Panasonic has announced that they will offer a native 1080i camera for "under $50K", which would seem to put it in the same price range as the new XDCAM HD 2/3" camcorder, plus P2 cards.

In the SF Bay Area market, the Panasonic HDX 900 is what rental facilities
seem to be buying. Of course, tape is what is familiar to most. This
camera is not a 1080i native camera and its codec is not very efficient and
the workflow is, well, tape.

I've been using an on-board hard drive recorder with my DSR-450 and that
is how we capture to NLE's. Tape is just a backup. The hard drive is a
step in the right direction towards an optical disc like XDCAM or the inexpensive dual media that the Grass Valley Infinity camera provides.

Sony needs to tout the workflow benefits of XDCAM much more. Their
promotional XDCAM HD DVD has two DP's talking, no editors. Workflow
is the way for Sony to beat Panasonic, IMO.

I guess my biggest problem with what's coming in a new version of XDCAM HD
is that it seems like it will be what XDCAM HD should have been all along,
much like Betacam transforming into Betacam SP shortly thereafter, although
pretty inexpensively in the latter case. My sources tell me that the specs
that we most often hear regarding the new XDCAM dual layer are below what
is really coming. If so, HDCAM would be redundant except for HDCAM SR.

Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com

[Graham Risdon]

I had the same dilemma about a year ago. I ended up going with the 450 as it was considerably more cost effective, and, unless you're going for broadcast, releasing HD footage isn't possible quite yet. The 450 is brilliant and has easily paid for itself in the year, so it owes me nothing.

Before buying, I had a chat to my local friendly Sony dealer who suggested steering clear of XDCAM for the moment in the UK as it wasn't being taken up fast enough - he thought it might go the same way as Beta SX...

Anyhow, as it's likely that 2/3" XDCAM cameras will be announced at NAB, now isn't a great time to buy a 330 or 350 - one would imagine that the price of the 1/2" cams will drop as a result.

With formats changing so fast, it's a difficult choice right now...

Hope this helps (a bit!)

[Simon Wyndham]

Releasing and making money out of HD footage is very possible now, and I'm not referring to broadcast.

One thing that I can tell you is that the release of a 2/3" XDCAM HD will not affect the price of the 1/2" HD models. They will be in totally different leagues.

With formats changing so fast, it's a difficult choice right now...

Not really. XDCAM is very solid and proven over a number of years now. Any new format will take a long time to get a foot hold.

As for XDCAM HD in the UK, it is the fastest growing format Sony have ever had. I have been informed that H Prestons alone sold over 30 of the cameras at the recent Video Forum event. I know they sold around 7 at a very small event in my hometown. So it makes me think about how many other retailers are selling. I'm hearing of people purchasing them all the time.

At this rate it will be hard to find anyone who doesn't have an XDCAM HD camera soon!

[Phil Bloom]

It all comes down to what you want to use it for.

Let me elaborate using myself as an example...

I bought the XDCAM HD as I was in the same situation as you, I couldn't justify buying a standard def camera when the future looked so HD! For the the first 3 months everything I shot was DVCAM on my XDCAM. After every shoot I sat in the production company office dubbing the stuff onto tape. My days were so long and I was knackered.

I realised that I couldn't go on like this so I bought the DSR 450 and have not regretted it. The picture quality is great, the paint functions are wonderful and it shoots progressive. I shoot with it most days.

Recently, I am doing more and more of my own projects, self shot, directed and edited. For these it's XDCAM HD all the way. The F350 is far more flexible. Over and undercrank. Proper timelapse, not the rubbish feature that is on the DSR 450, great viewfinder and of course shoots 1080.

Also, I have recently done a few shifts for FIVE news for a bit of Bread and Butter and to keep me on my toes, shooting and editing fast. For this the XDCAM in DVCAM mode is superb. Fast editing and thumbnails.

So I have ended up with two full size cameras that have their plusses and minuses. I think the DSR450 has a wonderful picture and is compatible with standard 2/3rd inch lenses. Almost everyone can take the tapes. One thing it is lacking is DVin meaning as a shoot/edit camera it is severly lacking.

if everyone out there had XDCAM HD decks then I wouldnt touch my DSR again, but I think it is going to be a slow change...when it comes it will be great. With regards to the 2/3rd XDCAM HD...that is sometime off and I really am suprised as they will end up competing with their own lower end HDCAM cameras. Not quite sure how that will work out!!!

[Alister Chapman]

You also need to consider that if you buy a 2/3" HD camcorder you will need a 2/3" HD lens and they don't come cheap. The cost of ownership of 2/3" XDCAM HD is likely to be 2 to 3 times that of half inch.