XDCAM HD editing with Vegas 7 or FCP - full frame rate PAL/NTSC monitor output?

[Mark P. Stuart]

Option 1 - Vegas 7

I am editing an XDCAM HD project on a 3yr old 3Ghz Intel Dell PC with Vegas 7.

Project settings set to HDV 1080-50i 1440x1080 25fps for PAL.

Setting the preview resolution to half (960 x 540) pretty much achieves the full pal frame rate (25)

Enabling OHCI 1394 DV output drops the frame rate to around 12 to 15 fps.

I cannot get Windows Secondary Display to work consistently - got it working once but cannot get it again.

Anyway, I prefer to monitor on an external PAL monitor for colour balancing and interlace reasons.

I know a faster CPU PC will speed up the frame rates. However this is a one off project and I'm not ready to upgrade PCs at the moment.

My question is: what can I do to improve the frame rate of the external output? Does outputting via an AJA or Blackmagic card have a CPU hit like the OHCI DV output does? If not would I expect to get the same frame rate that you get with the video playing within the PC window? Do either of these cards accelerate the real time capabilities?

Any recommendations on the best AJA or Blackmagic card to get for Vegas?


Option 2 - Final Cut Pro

I have the same XDCAM HD material on the timeline in FCP 5.1 on a dual 2.5ghz G5 Mac.

FCP is more response than my aging PC with Vegas.

Enabling Digital Cinema Desktop Preview plays full frame rate and full screen on my 1600x1200 2nd display.

I prefer to monitor on a Sony CRT PAL studio monitor that I am used to so I now enable video playback using the Apple Firewire PAL setting.

The output I get is single frame, despite being set to all frames. Also the aspect ratio is wrong, it is more squashed closer to cinema 2.35:1

Is anyone editing HD material on FCP and managing to get an SD downconversion via firewire? without need for a Kona card?

Many thanks in advance

[Andy Mees]

Mark

can't answer regarding Vegas as I'm not using that platform.

for FCP:
you cannot monitor XDCAM HD over firewire. it will not do that, although it will, as you note, give you single frame previews. (at a push, you could try opt-p for slighly more motion) if you add in a Kona or Decklink card you will be able to get realtime monitoring. alternatively, you will get realtime monitoring using a Matrox MXO.

[Peter Jefferson]

I am editing an XDCAM HD project on a 3yr old 3Ghz Intel Dell PC with Vegas 7.

((OK))

Project settings set to HDV 1080-50i 1440x1080 25fps for PAL.

((ok))


Setting the preview resolution to half (960 x 540) pretty much achieves the full pal frame rate (25)

((ok))

Enabling OHCI 1394 DV output drops the frame rate to around 12 to 15 fps.

((yes but remermber, this is a realtime downconversion from XDHD 35mbps to DV... ))

I cannot get Windows Secondary Display to work consistently - got it working once but cannot get it again.
((How do u mean? if ur having issues, id suggst you check yoru GFX drivers. If u can view video overlay on ur second monitor, vegas WILL work.. just need to make sure that yoru drivers allow for directdraw overlay on the second head))

Anyway, I prefer to monitor on an external PAL monitor for colour balancing and interlace reasons.

((U can do this with firewire, or on the Vegas secondary monitor, configure your colourspace within Vegas itself. there is a wide range of options and setups, from Pal, to NTSC etc etc) Go into preferences, select secondary monitor then check out the profiles availabile to you))

I know a faster CPU PC will speed up the frame rates. However this is a one off project and I'm not ready to upgrade PCs at the moment.
((UNderstood..))

My question is: what can I do to improve the frame rate of the external output?
((Why do you need a perfect preview? This is my thing.. i dont understand why its so important to have every frame viewable, when all your doing is editing.. Yes its annoying, but the app is so powerful that to me, a drop in framerate during preview is a small sacrifice... when doing intense compositing or corrections, u can always run a ram render. Also, use your scopes for correct colour luminance balance.. V7 might only be 8bit, but the scopes and CC are prolly some of teh best you'll see on an NLE of this "level" ))

Does outputting via an AJA or Blackmagic card have a CPU hit like the OHCI DV output does?
((Not sure of BM does any converting or if it outputs native.. i dont use it as i dont need it for what i do.. ))

If not would I expect to get the same frame rate that you get with the video playing within the PC window? Do either of these cards accelerate the real time capabilities?
((Vegas had and will most likely always be a CPU/Ram software based NLE.. Thre is no way to increase performance save for CPU and Ram. It helps to have a dedicated HW soundcard, as this frees up CPU load when working with audio, that cpu grunt can then be put to better use in the NLE))

Any recommendations on the best AJA or Blackmagic card to get for Vegas?
((No idea... check out newmagic.com.au for some info on each product..

[Brian Ladue]

Originally Posted by Andy Mees

Mark

can't answer regarding Vegas as I'm not using that platform.

for FCP:
you cannot monitor XDCAM HD over firewire. it will not do that, although it will, as you note, give you single frame previews. (at a push, you could try opt-p for slighly more motion) if you add in a Kona or Decklink card you will be able to get realtime monitoring. alternatively, you will get realtime monitoring using a Matrox MXO.

Now, what are your options for monitoring using the Decklink or Kona? besides using true HD monitors. what are cheaper alternatives for monitoring effectively? would the 23" or the 30" Apple Displays work? how about an LCD HDTV?

[Andy Mees]

with the Kona or Decklink you can get realtime HD, or SD downconvert, to a production monitor ... with something like Blackmagic's HDLink you can convert an HD SDI to DVI for viewing on your ACD. none of these options, other than the true HD to an HD production monitor, will give you critical color.

[Hornady Setiawan]

bout a week ago i asked decklink about vegas, and they answered that:
- sony advertised v7 support for decklink, BUT:
- decklink own's tests results are not up to standard, SO:
- decklink is currently working closely with Vegas & waiting for Vegas, as v7 reaches optimal support, Decklink will advertise Vegas 7 as a supported editor.

As for now, Decklink vegas support is only for Vegas v6 with Decklink driver 4.8.1.

:(

[Gerson Becker]

Hi,
I'm using Vegas 7d with Decklink version 5.6.
I can get 22 frames in the component output in 1920x1080.
If I switch to 720p I can get 30fps.
Works fine , but I'm still trying to figure out a 30fps in 1080i.
I'm using Core 2 Duo 6600 @ 2,4 and 2GB, with three striped 300GB HD in a built in raid controller in Intel D975 motherboard.

Gérson

[Mark P. Stuart]

Originally Posted by Peter Jefferson

((Why do you need a perfect preview? This is my thing.. i dont understand why its so important to have every frame viewable, when all your doing is editing.. Yes its annoying, but the app is so powerful that to me, a drop in framerate during preview is a small sacrifice... when doing intense compositing or corrections, u can always run a ram render. Also, use your scopes for correct colour luminance balance.. V7 might only be 8bit, but the scopes and CC are prolly some of teh best you'll see on an NLE of this "level" ))

It would seem Vegas users such as yourself Peter have adopted a workflow over the years around the lack of RT which is fine if RAM previewing or watching a reduced quality and frame rate works for you. We all have different workflows and requirements.

Having been used to proper RT myself for years and more and more RT solutions out there, for me, there is no way I would work at anything but full quality and full frame rate. Regardless of what functionality Vegas offers. Preview frame rate and quality is absolutely critical to me to make edit decisions, tweaks and corrections. Proper monitor output is critical for colour balance and interlace/slow motion etc. With Vegas I can miss a few frames crash zoom or focusing etc at an in-camera cut. You cannot preview to clients or do a RT output to set-top DVD recorder etc for quick clients timecode burns - and many other quality/time compromises. Somtimes outputs cant always wait for overnight renders.

Unless previewing every frame during editing - waiting for an MPEG2 encode or DVD burned to see the finished output is too late. RAM previewing time mounts up and time is money. False economy having to go back to the edit after the DVD burned. Tendancy to just make do with the DVD, is not good .

I'm just back from Videoforum London where Canopus Edius on a quadcore 2.67 intel with 3 x IDE raid stripe was doing 7 layers HD using Canopus HQ codec - out to component PAL monitor in RT full frame rate. I could set multiple filters, colour corrections etc on multiple clips with 6 layers. Same PC is reported to do 3 or 4 layers native XDCAM.

What unique functionality has Vegas got that is worth the compromises?