F330 Menu Recipes

[Steve Leone]

has anyone done anything similar to what Paolo Ciccone has done for the JVC100 and published custom menu settings for the f330 based on response to DSC color chart??? I could really use some suggestions or better yet, links to such recipes!!

[Simon Wyndham]

This is an odd one. Different cameras will respond slightly differently with the same menu settings. To do such things accurately needs a vectorscope and waveform monitor, and overlays from the vector/waveform displays made from the camera you are trying to match to. This is why I like the idea of Vidscope (www.vidscope.com). It is software, and allows overlays to be saved so that you can send them to other users of that program so that they can match their cameras. Theoretically if someone creates a great look with a DVX100, they could save the overlay and give it to someone with an F350, and they could match it.

Hardware scopes can be obtained fairly cheaply these days thanks to Ebay, and some production monitors now have vectorscopes and waveforms built into them. If you want to get into camera setup they are invaluable. Hardware scopes are always better than software ones.

Now regarding the DSC chart I haven't figured this one out. I recently set my PDW-510 up to the Chroma Du Monde chart. But I was told by a Sony engineer that they use an EBU chart (European) which is the only recognised chart for colour in this neck of the woods, and a Murakami reflectance chart for white reference. I was told that setting to the DSC chart might actually be detrimental and give illegal values. Setting the white to the Murakami chart, and then to the DSC would probably give different results. I was told, so I'm not responsible for that information. But I was told by a very experienced source. I was told that under scrutinized conditions that Sony cameras will line up to the EBU Chart perfectly using the factory defaults in most cases. Looking at the before and after vectorscope shots on the DSC website for an F900, this ight well be the case. The F900 in their example showed pretty much the same alignments that my camera did when I first pointed at the Chroma Dumonde before I made any adjustments.

I have kept my camera setup to the DSC reference though as I like the look, and I can clearly see many tones and colours are much more accurately produced now. And I have to say that the guys at DSC are extremely helpful indeed and very enthusiastic for their product. They'll go out of their way to help users.

I'll also add that the F330 and 350 menus are a bit dumbed down. It is possible to access the full adjustments, but that is best left to an engineer and I won't post the info on how to do it here. I won't risk being associated with a dead Cinealta due to careless fingers!

[Chris Hurd]

Thanks for that link, Simon... considering that a good, HD-ready, SDI-equipped VS / WFM from Leader can tip the scales at about $10,000 or so, this software application is a good fall-back. The VidScope-vx software from Hamlet that you mention above ranges in USD from $200 for HDV up to $2000, which is appealingly more affordable. Not a bad way to go if carrying a laptop around is already part of your routine.

[Simon Wyndham]

The great thing is that it also records the video as well like DVRack, as well as having audio monitoring too.

[Jonathan Ames]

As you probably know, we're finishing up a pilot using the F350s and Paolo has come up with settings that did for the Sonys what his did for the JVCs. Let me find out what he and the SEE from Sony have done and if we can post them. JVC also asked him to test the new JVCs and come up with settings for that camera as well so we'll see what's up when he gets back from vacation next week.

[Steve Leone]

Looking forward to more of Paolos great scene files!!

[Paolo Ciccone]

Originally Posted by Steve Leone

Looking forward to more of Paolos great scene files!!

Thanks! I will put something together after we finish principal photography for "El Papel". Regarding the post about the DSC chart not being "appropriate" for the F350, I find that hard to believe. Scott Billups has done an amazing amount of work with digital cameras since the birth of this technology and his advice is to get a DSC chart as soon as you can. No exceptions. The current generation of DSC charts are made to work in the HD colorspace and the results that I had with both the HD100 and the F-350 have been great. The HD100 needed more work because it was far from 1:1 more than the 350. One thing that I can emphasize is the knee feature of the F-350. It is truly remarkable. if you need to shoot in situations of high contrast ratio spend some time moving the knee from 95 to 83% and see the difference in the highlights. The same operation doesn't lead to nearly half of the result on cheaper cameras (sub $10,000)

[Greg Boston]

Originally Posted by Paolo Ciccone

One thing that I can emphasize is the knee feature of the F-350. It is truly remarkable. if you need to shoot in situations of high contrast ratio spend some time moving the knee from 95 to 83% and see the difference in the highlights.

Yeah Paolo, I was a bit disappointed to see that the KNEE functions got locked out in the new firmware while using a Cinegamma curve. I've requested that Sony put it back in so that one can start with a Cinegamma curve of their liking, then make some final tweaks with the knee to fit the current scenario.

-gb-

[Paolo Ciccone]

Originally Posted by Greg Boston

Yeah Paolo, I was a bit disappointed to see that the KNEE functions got locked out in the new firmware while using a Cinegamma curve.

Good point, I use the Standard gamma curve as I feel that the cinegamma one affects the balance too much for my taste. I usually keep the gamma curve almost linear and then change it in post if I need to.

[Simon Wyndham]

If you start with the STD gamma, you can adjust it to be similar to the cinegamma. But you will need to access extra adjustments from the Engineering menu (this will give the camera the same adjustments as the SD XDCAM's). But you will void the warranty as you will need to open the camera up.

By using a waveform you should be able to get the result you want by leaving it in STD gamma, and adjusting the Knee, Knee Slope, Knee Point, and Black Gamma. Trouble is that the XDCAM HD cannot output a saw signal, which is what you really want for seeing the gamma curve adjustment.

By leaving the curve linear you are wasting a lot of the range the CCD is capable of capturing. The key is to get a good balance.

Regarding the post about the DSC chart not being "appropriate" for the F350, I find that hard to believe.

I was using with a 510, not the 350. It wasn't that he said it was inappropriate. It was that he thought it may push the camera out of reference for EBU broadcast standards. Given the guys experience I can't really comment on whether he is correct or not. But he was adamant that the Sony cameras match EBU colour standards out of the box.

of high contrast ratio spend some time moving the knee from 95 to 83% and see the difference in the highlights.

Are you referring to the knee point? Be careful with the knee point. At 83% you are dangerously close to skin tones, and if there are people in the picture you risk compressing them depending on the lighting.

[Paolo Ciccone]

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

Trouble is that the XDCAM HD cannot output a saw signal, which is what you really want for seeing the gamma curve adjustment.

I usually fram the 11-step gradient of the chart which produces the right amount of steps. From there I shift the gamma by looking at the WFM.

inappropriate. It was that he thought it may push the camera out of reference for EBU broadcast standards.

I see now. I don't worry about the broadcast limits since I use the camera for use in theatrical features or videos that will have enough time in post to then adjust the levels at that point. Essentially we use the camera in a film-like manner.

Are you referring to the knee point? Be careful with the knee point. At 83% you are dangerously close to skin tones, and if there are people in the picture you risk compressing them depending on the lighting.

Yes, I noticed. That's why I mentioned the range. There are situations thought where a more aggressive knee point is necessary. I was pleased to see that the F-350 offers that kind of flexibility. Of course, at the end of the setup you have to consider several factors and the knee setting is something that I adjust fairly often.

[Jonathan Ames]

I'll be so happy when we can post some quick clips to illustrate the range of this camera. We put up a couple of 190MB clips that apparently were too large for many people to download but I hesitate to reduce the file size sacrificing quality. It really is incredible what the 350 is capable of before post which, as Paolo and anyone who's worked with me will attest, I demand. I want the best going into post and the 350s, so far, have gotten us 95% of the way there.

Another thing is that it's too bad opening the body voids the warranty. There are plenty of people out there who know what they're doing and by going into the camera's boards like Paolo did, it's amazing what can be achieved. I came onto the set one day and Paolo had the 350's guts hanging out down nthe side of the tripodb and I almost had a heart attack...until I reaklized Sony's top SEE was on the other end of his cell with him. All I can say is the difference was remarkable. All and I mean all of the studio execs who have seen the dailies are amazed at the results even before post.

[Greg Boston]

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

But you will need to access extra adjustments from the Engineering menu (this will give the camera the same adjustments as the SD XDCAM's). But you will void the warranty as you will need to open the camera up.

There is a way to access the service menu without opening the camera. Thierry posted it, but I removed it. This is not information to be made available to the general public, just as we did not allow posting the method to gain access to service menus on the JVC100.

I would hope that anyone else who knows how will not attempt to re-post that information.

-gb-

[Simon Wyndham]

One reason I didn't post the info was because of having to open up the camera.

But if there is indeed a way of accessing the service menu without switching the dip switches then I think there is no harm in posting it. People are intelligent enough to know not to mess around with stuff they don't know about. The menus include a factory reset option if something does get put out.

The trouble with the standard menus on the F3xx series is that they are rather dumbed down from the PDW-5xx and other Cinealta series cameras. The service menus contain extra options, namely pages S11 through to S22, with S11 enabling a test SAW output to see and adjust the gamma curves on a waveform without the need for a DSC chart etc.

[Greg Boston]

The difference is that Sony published the information on doing the firmware update. It was intended to be an end user procedure.

But I will ask the folks at Sony if they mind us posting the service menu access procedure. If they're ok with it, then it will be made public. We have no control over who reads this information when it's posted and you have to keep that in mind.

You'll also recall that I asked you not to post that information on the forums as soon as they told us how to do it.

-gb-