Compact B-Camera for XDCam HD? at DVinfo.net

Brian Ladue · November 7th, 2006, 03:13 PM

What in your opinion is an ideal compact camera to use as a B-Camera with the 350? ........Z1u?, HVX200?, XHA1?, Sony A1u?,V1? Which camera after some post would make a useable B-Cam for XDcam HD..... lets say for example if you were shooting something with hopes to sell to Discovery HD? Thanks again

Brian.

Brian Ladue · November 9th, 2006, 11:48 AM

hmmmm..... no takers on this thread!? Well, I guess it would be hard to say. There are a bunch of new Cameras coming out, probably all of which could be usable! I'm kind of leaning towards this new camera from sony... the HVR-V1U.... it looks intriguing. True 24p would match nicely when shooting in this format, nice reach on the lens (20X), long battery life (970), light (3 lbs)...... I kind of laughed to myself when an article i read said the it resolves 800 lines on a resolution chart. I'd like to see that with mine own eyes! Anyways i'm kind of between this camera (V1U and a Canon XHA1.

Benjamin Hill · November 9th, 2006, 12:11 PM

Brian, since all the 1/3" HD/HDV cameras will already have a smaller image (not in pixels, but compared to what the bigger lens & CCDs give you), I'd make that decision based on what will incorporate best into your NLE workflow with the XDcam.

Brian Ladue · November 9th, 2006, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin Hill

Brian, since all the 1/3" HD/HDV cameras will already have a smaller image (not in pixels, but compared to what the bigger lens & CCDs give you), I'd make that decision based on what will incorporate best into your NLE workflow with the XDcam.

Thanks Benjamin, I should say also that I am currently working with Premiere Pro... an NLE that will not hold up very well with the XDCam..... so with that in mind I am also looking to upgrade my NLE. I am looking at Either a Mac Pro setup (latest FCP) or go to Vegas 7, which is cheaper but I'm willing to go for the Mac setup.I also understand that there is a new update that deals pretty good with the 24f mode by Canon. So i can cut the 2 different footages together on the same time line. So in a sense I am also weighing in the B-camera factor in making a decision on my next NLE workflow!

Greg Boston · November 9th, 2006, 12:35 PM

I think the new V1 might work well for you since as you probably know, each mfgr's camera offerings have a 'look' to them. So with that in mind, I'm hoping that a smaller Sony camera would cut together with the XDCAM using less correction to match the shots.

-gb-

Nigel Cooper · November 9th, 2006, 04:01 PM

I'd say a V1 as it does both 1080i and 1080p just like F350; only HDV of course. But at least you have the option of shooting interlace or progressive with both cams then.

Brian Ladue · November 9th, 2006, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Boston

I think the new V1 might work well for you since as you probably know, each mfgr's camera offerings have a 'look' to them. So with that in mind, I'm hoping that a smaller Sony camera would cut together with the XDCAM using less correction to match the shots.

-gb-

I know what you mean by the "look".... thats the one thing i'm thinking about when comparing these 2 cameras.... I honestly do not like the "look" of the Canon XL/XH footage, that said though i'm sure with the tonnes of settings you can tailor it to look the way you want.... but i just don't seem to like what i'm seeing with that camera, I'm very interested to see what more V1 footage looks like...... I did see the footage that is currently posted (guy with the parachute).... it looks good, but i'd like to see more..... I think you are right, that the V1 may match the XDcam the best.

Nate Weaver · November 9th, 2006, 05:01 PM

I think of other issues when it comes to B camera. For instance, they keep saying the V1 rolls it's 24p into 29.97 with pulldown. If that's true, then at the codec level, the F350/330 are incompatible. You'd have to remove pulldown on the V1 material before you would want to put them on the same timeline.

BUT, despite what everybody says about that camera (pulldown method), my money is just that it's all confusion and the V1 writes 24p to tape just like the Canons and the JVCs, using repeat flags so there's no recompression needed to remove the pulldown.

Anyway, my vote for my producer to get a B camera was going to be the Canon A1, with the Sony V1 being a close second. I have XLH-1 material on my drive that I've intercut with the 350...with a little tweaking they cut very well.

Matthew Pugerude · November 9th, 2006, 05:05 PM

I have been using the FX1 with the 350 and the editors seem to love it. they say it has the same "look" without a lot of tweaking. Some but not alot of tweaking. I will have to say that the show is being edited with Smoke. So their editorial tools are extreme and more then likely not have any problems in dealing with the two formats. Premiere Pro with the Cineform Prospect setup would solve your problems. You also do not need an extensive Hard Drive setup with Prospect. now if you are interested in the FAM workflow with the XDCAM 350 you would not be happy with the Prospect setup. Although Cineform says that they are going to add the Fam workflow as soon as there seems to be enough people who are looking for it. Since you have will to log and capture the B camera stuff then maybe that workflow doesn't work for you.

My 2Cents
Get a Premiere Prospect setup and put your money you would save into more produciton gear. Or go out to dinner for a few months.

Bennis Hahn · November 9th, 2006, 06:08 PM

regarding workflow, you could most likely just drop both formats on a 24p timeline in Vegas 7 and it will work perfectly.

Note that I have not done this personally, but Vegas handles everything else this way so you might be lucky...

Alister Chapman · November 11th, 2006, 04:17 AM

I use a Z1 with my F350 and the pictures have a very similar look. The canon H1 looks quite different. The Z1 is useful for me as I do a large mix of 30fps and 25fps work.

Brian Ladue · November 13th, 2006, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

I use a Z1 with my F350 and the pictures have a very similar look. The canon H1 looks quite different. The Z1 is useful for me as I do a large mix of 30fps and 25fps work.

So how does one add Z1 footage to F350 24p footage? Do you have to deinterlace the Z1 stuff? and then add it to the 24p timeline? and what extra software would you need? what would you recommend shooting in with the Z1? 50i? 60i? I'm sure you would stay away from using cineframe 24, 30! If you can shed some light, that would be very helpful.... because i'm thinking maybe the Z1 would be a very nice B-cam but i just want to know what else i may need to be able to use the Z1 with the 350 in 24p.

Tip McPartland · November 14th, 2006, 12:13 AM

To add to Matthew's post above, I have had some exchanges with David Newman on the Cineform subsection of this forum, and he said that if ten XDCAM HD users contacted him, that would get them to develop a capability in Prospect for the 35 Mb/sec XDCAM HD codec. Contact David, this would be a really cool way to handle XDCAM HD material.

This should get you to the proper forum, or just navigate from here. Pick one of David's posts and this will enable you to send him an e-mail.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisp...?s=&forumid=76

Tip McPartland

Alister Chapman · November 14th, 2006, 03:14 AM

If I had to deliver in 24P and had no option other than to use the Z1 then I would shoot 25P on the F350 and 50i on the Z1 (or maybe CCF 25, it's not as bad as some make out) and edit in a 25P timeline. It depends on the NLE you use as to whether you need to de-interlace the 50i footage first. When my edit was complete I would do a 4% slow down to get 24P.

That's one route the other would be to shoot 24P on the F350 and 50i on the Z1 then slow down the Z1 footage by 4%. However this won't work if you need the cameras to run in sync.

The Z1 isn't the perfect companion to the F350 but in terms of overall look and colourimetry it's very good.

Brian Ladue · November 14th, 2006, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

If I had to deliver in 24P and had no option other than to use the Z1 then I would shoot 25P on the F350 and 50i on the Z1 (or maybe CCF 25, it's not as bad as some make out) and edit in a 25P timeline. It depends on the NLE you use as to whether you need to de-interlace the 50i footage first. When my edit was complete I would do a 4% slow down to get 24P.

That's one route the other would be to shoot 24P on the F350 and 50i on the Z1 then slow down the Z1 footage by 4%. However this won't work if you need the cameras to run in sync.

The Z1 isn't the perfect companion to the F350 but in terms of overall look and colourimetry it's very good.

In your opinion Alister, which camera would be the most ideal companion for the F350?

November 7th, 2006, 03:13 PM	#1
Brian Ladue Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 149	Compact B-Camera for XDCam HD? What in your opinion is an ideal compact camera to use as a B-Camera with the 350? ........Z1u?, HVX200?, XHA1?, Sony A1u?,V1? Which camera after some post would make a useable B-Cam for XDcam HD..... lets say for example if you were shooting something with hopes to sell to Discovery HD? Thanks again Brian.

November 9th, 2006, 12:11 PM	#3
Benjamin Hill Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Iowa City, Iowa Posts: 670	Brian, since all the 1/3" HD/HDV cameras will already have a smaller image (not in pixels, but compared to what the bigger lens & CCDs give you), I'd make that decision based on what will incorporate best into your NLE workflow with the XDcam. __________________ youtube.com/benhillmedia linkedin.com/in/benhillmedia

November 9th, 2006, 05:01 PM	#8
Nate Weaver Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 2,100	I think of other issues when it comes to B camera. For instance, they keep saying the V1 rolls it's 24p into 29.97 with pulldown. If that's true, then at the codec level, the F350/330 are incompatible. You'd have to remove pulldown on the V1 material before you would want to put them on the same timeline. BUT, despite what everybody says about that camera (pulldown method), my money is just that it's all confusion and the V1 writes 24p to tape just like the Canons and the JVCs, using repeat flags so there's no recompression needed to remove the pulldown. Anyway, my vote for my producer to get a B camera was going to be the Canon A1, with the Sony V1 being a close second. I have XLH-1 material on my drive that I've intercut with the 350...with a little tweaking they cut very well. __________________ My Work: nateweaver.net

November 9th, 2006, 05:05 PM	#9
Matthew Pugerude Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Redmond, Oregon Posts: 173	Using a B camera with 350 I have been using the FX1 with the 350 and the editors seem to love it. they say it has the same "look" without a lot of tweaking. Some but not alot of tweaking. I will have to say that the show is being edited with Smoke. So their editorial tools are extreme and more then likely not have any problems in dealing with the two formats. Premiere Pro with the Cineform Prospect setup would solve your problems. You also do not need an extensive Hard Drive setup with Prospect. now if you are interested in the FAM workflow with the XDCAM 350 you would not be happy with the Prospect setup. Although Cineform says that they are going to add the Fam workflow as soon as there seems to be enough people who are looking for it. Since you have will to log and capture the B camera stuff then maybe that workflow doesn't work for you. My 2Cents Get a Premiere Prospect setup and put your money you would save into more produciton gear. Or go out to dinner for a few months.

November 11th, 2006, 04:17 AM	#11
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	I use a Z1 with my F350 and the pictures have a very similar look. The canon H1 looks quite different. The Z1 is useful for me as I do a large mix of 30fps and 25fps work. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

November 9th, 2006, 11:48 AM	#2
Brian Ladue Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 149	hmmmm..... no takers on this thread!? Well, I guess it would be hard to say. There are a bunch of new Cameras coming out, probably all of which could be usable! I'm kind of leaning towards this new camera from sony... the HVR-V1U.... it looks intriguing. True 24p would match nicely when shooting in this format, nice reach on the lens (20X), long battery life (970), light (3 lbs)...... I kind of laughed to myself when an article i read said the it resolves 800 lines on a resolution chart. I'd like to see that with mine own eyes! Anyways i'm kind of between this camera (V1U and a Canon XHA1.

November 9th, 2006, 12:35 PM	#5
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	I think the new V1 might work well for you since as you probably know, each mfgr's camera offerings have a 'look' to them. So with that in mind, I'm hoping that a smaller Sony camera would cut together with the XDCAM using less correction to match the shots. -gb-

November 9th, 2006, 04:01 PM	#6
Nigel Cooper Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cambridgeshire, UK Posts: 112	I'd say a V1 as it does both 1080i and 1080p just like F350; only HDV of course. But at least you have the option of shooting interlace or progressive with both cams then.

November 9th, 2006, 06:08 PM	#10
Bennis Hahn Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 221	regarding workflow, you could most likely just drop both formats on a 24p timeline in Vegas 7 and it will work perfectly. Note that I have not done this personally, but Vegas handles everything else this way so you might be lucky...

November 14th, 2006, 12:13 AM	#13
Tip McPartland Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Crestline, California Posts: 351	Cineform Prospect To add to Matthew's post above, I have had some exchanges with David Newman on the Cineform subsection of this forum, and he said that if ten XDCAM HD users contacted him, that would get them to develop a capability in Prospect for the 35 Mb/sec XDCAM HD codec. Contact David, this would be a really cool way to handle XDCAM HD material. This should get you to the proper forum, or just navigate from here. Pick one of David's posts and this will enable you to send him an e-mail. http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisp...?s=&forumid=76 Tip McPartland

November 14th, 2006, 03:14 AM	#14
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	If I had to deliver in 24P and had no option other than to use the Z1 then I would shoot 25P on the F350 and 50i on the Z1 (or maybe CCF 25, it's not as bad as some make out) and edit in a 25P timeline. It depends on the NLE you use as to whether you need to de-interlace the 50i footage first. When my edit was complete I would do a 4% slow down to get 24P. That's one route the other would be to shoot 24P on the F350 and 50i on the Z1 then slow down the Z1 footage by 4%. However this won't work if you need the cameras to run in sync. The Z1 isn't the perfect companion to the F350 but in terms of overall look and colourimetry it's very good. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com