XD Cam HD...Worth the price?

Stuart Brontman · November 26th, 2006, 10:13 AM

I'm curious if any of you that owned/used a Canon XL H1 ever compared HD-SDI footage from the Canon to 35mB/s footage from the XDCAM HD? If so, was the 330/350 still much better than the Canon? Also, does anyone ever capture HD-SDI from the 350, or is the quality straight from the camera's discs that good?

As much as I had wanted to see the XDCAM 330/350 at the DV Expo, Sony decided the show was not the proper forum for the camera. ProMax had a 350 at their booth, but no footage was available for comparison purposes. Sony's booth was clearly focused on the new V1U. I've got to admit that XDCAM HD along with a V1U for those hard-to-reach areas seems like an intriguing combo - at least in progressive mode. The V1U's interlaced footage seemed a bit soft to me.

Stuart

Steve Connor · November 26th, 2006, 10:47 AM

330/350 images surpass the H1 quality by quite a long way. I've used both and I won't be using the H1 again unless I have to. The 35mb XDCam outperforms the H1 in every respect apart from price.

Stuart Brontman · November 26th, 2006, 11:05 AM

Thanks for the response. As I move closer to the contract for this HD job, it amazes me how many equipment decisions I'll be making. If I decide to make the investment in XDCAM-HD (which is certainly what I'd prefer, if money were not an issue), I'll need to re-evaluate my editing situation. I'm using the Adobe Production Suite for my SD stuff now and have been 95% happy with it. With XDCAM HD, there really is no reasonable route with PPro 2.0. It's either on to Vegas 7.0 (don't want to) or FCP. FCP is probably my best route, since I'm a big After Effects user. Much of my work involves motion graphics. From what I've read, AE is nicely supported with XDCAM files in the Mac environment. A new Mac Pro could give me the best of both worlds...

I lean towards the 330 and a good lens, since I will not be doing anything beyond corporate work. I don't think I can justify the extra $8000 or so for the 350's features. Any thoughts on the 330/350 for corporate from users of both cams?

Thanks.

Stuart

Alister Chapman · November 26th, 2006, 01:34 PM

I had both an XL-H1 and F350 at the same time. hen the F350 arrived the XL-H1 went back in it's box and never came out again. The XL-H1 is a superb camera but it just isn't in the same league as the F350/F330. There are so many advantages to the XDCAM's over the H1, not least of which is picture quality. The F350 is considerably cleaner and has more dynamic range. In my opinion the H1 has a slightly odd looking colourimetry. 35Mb XDCAM holds together soooo much better in post than 25mb HDV, the extra 10Mb and the variable bit rate allocation makes the format much more robust.

Once you switch to a file based system (at least a reliable, bug free system) there is no turning back. Instant clip access, easy clip managment etc are just wonderful.

I made the switch from PC's to Mac's for XDCAM and have no regrets. In fact I have just ordered a new Macpro to replace my G5. I love being able to edit while still ingesting footage in the background.

As for the F350/F330 debate, well there isn't much difference except the viewfinder. The 1.5" VF of the F330 is not up to the job for HD, it's way to small especially as it is a 4:3VF so you get a tiny letterbox image to squint at. If you go for the F330 I strongly recommend you get the 2" VF upgrade. If you don't need overcrank or HDSDi then the F330 will save you some money, if you can live with the silver colour.

Phil Bloom · November 26th, 2006, 02:40 PM

if you can't live with the silver colour (which is much nice in the "flesh") but a Petrol wrap for it like I have!

having component out saved me buying the more expensive SDI Marshall monitor too!

Scott Aston · November 26th, 2006, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart Brontman

Thanks for the response. As I move closer to the contract for this HD job, it amazes me how many equipment decisions I'll be making. If I decide to make the investment in XDCAM-HD (which is certainly what I'd prefer, if money were not an issue), I'll need to re-evaluate my editing situation. I'm using the Adobe Production Suite for my SD stuff now and have been 95% happy with it. With XDCAM HD, there really is no reasonable route with PPro 2.0. It's either on to Vegas 7.0 (don't want to) or FCP. FCP is probably my best route, since I'm a big After Effects user. Much of my work involves motion graphics. From what I've read, AE is nicely supported with XDCAM files in the Mac environment. A new Mac Pro could give me the best of both worlds...

I lean towards the 330 and a good lens, since I will not be doing anything beyond corporate work. I don't think I can justify the extra $8000 or so for the 350's features. Any thoughts on the 330/350 for corporate from users of both cams?

Thanks.

Stuart

Keep in mind that Adobe has not yet released a After Effects Universal version to run on the MacPro. I called Adobe and they say the Universal version of AF will be some time in first quarter '07.

Stuart Brontman · November 26th, 2006, 07:44 PM

Thanks for all the responses. If the contract comes through for the price I'm expecting, the 330 could be the one. I agree the XL H1 is a great camera for a 1/3" HDV system, but I will always choose higher picture quality if I can afford it.

Regarding a universal copy of After Effects 7.0, thanks for the heads up. I know Motion has some nice features, but I'm too heavily entrenched in After Effects to walk away (not to mention 9 years of experience in it).

As the time approaches, I'll post my final decision. Until then, I'll enjoy the great information on this website.

Stuart

Phil Bloom · November 27th, 2006, 02:16 AM

The 330 is an amazing camera. Ignore the superior picture quality, optics etc...the disc format alone is worth the price. Never again will you lose an important take or shot due to flimsy mini dv tapes.

The 330/350 are pro cameras accepted by broadcasters. The H1, although capable of terrific pictures is not accepted by all broadcasters, will not impress corporate clients anywhere near as much as the xdcam. Let's not ignore the fact that you can shoot in progressive mode which the H1 does not support.

As corporate is the big part of your work, the XDCAM will blow them away! The H1 is overpriced, in picture quality it is pretty much identical to the Z1, yet twice the price.

Alister Chapman · November 27th, 2006, 03:03 AM

The H1 does shoot progressive, in much the same way as the F350/F330 and the picture quality of the H1 is better than the Z1, I know I've owned both. The H1 and Z1 are very different cameras. I don't think the H1 is over-priced. If you use one you start to realise what you have paid for, things like proper manual control switches and knobs, not menus and push buttons. Timecode in and out, HDSDi, useable 4 channel audio with 4 inputs, adjustable colour matrices, dial-in white balance, white balance offsets etc etc. The very things that differentiate between a handycam and a Pro camera.

I never found HDV to be flimsy. Yes, drop-outs can be an issue but they are not normaly a big problem unless you have dirty heads. I've used HDV cameras in some pretty horrendous weather, bolted them in all kinds of aircraft, rollercoasters, rally and race cars and they have always delivered the goods.

My corporate clients love XDCAM. Most of them don't really understand the difference between being tape based and file based, but when they ask to review a take and you press one button and are back at the start of the take it impresses them, as does the picture quaility in both HD and SD.

Bart Walczak · November 27th, 2006, 06:31 AM

For Adobe Premiere support of XDCAM HD, see http://www.videotechnics.com/products/xdcam_vt.asp

Gerson Becker · November 27th, 2006, 06:41 AM

Hi Bart,
Did you tried the plugin?
Did it work?
I´m looking for, and waiting for a Premiere solution for XDCam HD editing.

Thanks.

Alister Chapman · November 27th, 2006, 01:18 PM

Last time I checked that plug-in only worked with SD XDCAM decks connected using Ethernet.

Bart Walczak · November 27th, 2006, 05:53 PM

I was trying to make it work with some XDCAM clips that I got, but so far - no success. I'm waiting for the answer from their support. We'll see.

Essentially what we need is an AVI wrapper for MXF files... Shouldn't be that hard to do. I sincerely hope that blackmagic will support MXF soon, since we already own Multibridge Pro.

Jimi King · December 4th, 2006, 10:29 PM

Does anyone know if there are any movies shot on 350 or 330?I would like to know if it would be a good choice to go with 350 instead H1 for my feature.
JK

Steve Connor · December 5th, 2006, 02:19 AM

The 330 is a much better choice for your feature than the H1 for all the reasons listed above!

November 26th, 2006, 01:34 PM	#19
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	I had both an XL-H1 and F350 at the same time. hen the F350 arrived the XL-H1 went back in it's box and never came out again. The XL-H1 is a superb camera but it just isn't in the same league as the F350/F330. There are so many advantages to the XDCAM's over the H1, not least of which is picture quality. The F350 is considerably cleaner and has more dynamic range. In my opinion the H1 has a slightly odd looking colourimetry. 35Mb XDCAM holds together soooo much better in post than 25mb HDV, the extra 10Mb and the variable bit rate allocation makes the format much more robust. Once you switch to a file based system (at least a reliable, bug free system) there is no turning back. Instant clip access, easy clip managment etc are just wonderful. I made the switch from PC's to Mac's for XDCAM and have no regrets. In fact I have just ordered a new Macpro to replace my G5. I love being able to edit while still ingesting footage in the background. As for the F350/F330 debate, well there isn't much difference except the viewfinder. The 1.5" VF of the F330 is not up to the job for HD, it's way to small especially as it is a 4:3VF so you get a tiny letterbox image to squint at. If you go for the F330 I strongly recommend you get the 2" VF upgrade. If you don't need overcrank or HDSDi then the F330 will save you some money, if you can live with the silver colour. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

November 26th, 2006, 02:40 PM	#20
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	if you can't live with the silver colour (which is much nice in the "flesh") but a Petrol wrap for it like I have! having component out saved me buying the more expensive SDI Marshall monitor too! __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

November 27th, 2006, 02:16 AM	#23
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	The 330 is an amazing camera. Ignore the superior picture quality, optics etc...the disc format alone is worth the price. Never again will you lose an important take or shot due to flimsy mini dv tapes. The 330/350 are pro cameras accepted by broadcasters. The H1, although capable of terrific pictures is not accepted by all broadcasters, will not impress corporate clients anywhere near as much as the xdcam. Let's not ignore the fact that you can shoot in progressive mode which the H1 does not support. As corporate is the big part of your work, the XDCAM will blow them away! The H1 is overpriced, in picture quality it is pretty much identical to the Z1, yet twice the price. __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

November 27th, 2006, 03:03 AM	#24
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	The H1 does shoot progressive, in much the same way as the F350/F330 and the picture quality of the H1 is better than the Z1, I know I've owned both. The H1 and Z1 are very different cameras. I don't think the H1 is over-priced. If you use one you start to realise what you have paid for, things like proper manual control switches and knobs, not menus and push buttons. Timecode in and out, HDSDi, useable 4 channel audio with 4 inputs, adjustable colour matrices, dial-in white balance, white balance offsets etc etc. The very things that differentiate between a handycam and a Pro camera. I never found HDV to be flimsy. Yes, drop-outs can be an issue but they are not normaly a big problem unless you have dirty heads. I've used HDV cameras in some pretty horrendous weather, bolted them in all kinds of aircraft, rollercoasters, rally and race cars and they have always delivered the goods. My corporate clients love XDCAM. Most of them don't really understand the difference between being tape based and file based, but when they ask to review a take and you press one button and are back at the start of the take it impresses them, as does the picture quaility in both HD and SD. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

November 27th, 2006, 01:18 PM	#27
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	Last time I checked that plug-in only worked with SD XDCAM decks connected using Ethernet. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

November 26th, 2006, 10:13 AM	#16
Stuart Brontman Contributor Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 228	I'm curious if any of you that owned/used a Canon XL H1 ever compared HD-SDI footage from the Canon to 35mB/s footage from the XDCAM HD? If so, was the 330/350 still much better than the Canon? Also, does anyone ever capture HD-SDI from the 350, or is the quality straight from the camera's discs that good? As much as I had wanted to see the XDCAM 330/350 at the DV Expo, Sony decided the show was not the proper forum for the camera. ProMax had a 350 at their booth, but no footage was available for comparison purposes. Sony's booth was clearly focused on the new V1U. I've got to admit that XDCAM HD along with a V1U for those hard-to-reach areas seems like an intriguing combo - at least in progressive mode. The V1U's interlaced footage seemed a bit soft to me. Stuart

November 26th, 2006, 10:47 AM	#17
Steve Connor Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK Posts: 383	330/350 images surpass the H1 quality by quite a long way. I've used both and I won't be using the H1 again unless I have to. The 35mb XDCam outperforms the H1 in every respect apart from price.

November 26th, 2006, 11:05 AM	#18
Stuart Brontman Contributor Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 228	Thanks for the response. As I move closer to the contract for this HD job, it amazes me how many equipment decisions I'll be making. If I decide to make the investment in XDCAM-HD (which is certainly what I'd prefer, if money were not an issue), I'll need to re-evaluate my editing situation. I'm using the Adobe Production Suite for my SD stuff now and have been 95% happy with it. With XDCAM HD, there really is no reasonable route with PPro 2.0. It's either on to Vegas 7.0 (don't want to) or FCP. FCP is probably my best route, since I'm a big After Effects user. Much of my work involves motion graphics. From what I've read, AE is nicely supported with XDCAM files in the Mac environment. A new Mac Pro could give me the best of both worlds... I lean towards the 330 and a good lens, since I will not be doing anything beyond corporate work. I don't think I can justify the extra $8000 or so for the 350's features. Any thoughts on the 330/350 for corporate from users of both cams? Thanks. Stuart

November 26th, 2006, 07:44 PM	#22
Stuart Brontman Contributor Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 228	Thanks for all the responses. If the contract comes through for the price I'm expecting, the 330 could be the one. I agree the XL H1 is a great camera for a 1/3" HDV system, but I will always choose higher picture quality if I can afford it. Regarding a universal copy of After Effects 7.0, thanks for the heads up. I know Motion has some nice features, but I'm too heavily entrenched in After Effects to walk away (not to mention 9 years of experience in it). As the time approaches, I'll post my final decision. Until then, I'll enjoy the great information on this website. Stuart

November 27th, 2006, 06:31 AM	#25
Bart Walczak Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Warsaw/Poland Posts: 716	For Adobe Premiere support of XDCAM HD, see http://www.videotechnics.com/products/xdcam_vt.asp

November 27th, 2006, 06:41 AM	#26
Gerson Becker Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Porto Alegre - Brasil Posts: 63	Hi Bart, Did you tried the plugin? Did it work? I´m looking for, and waiting for a Premiere solution for XDCam HD editing. Thanks.

November 27th, 2006, 05:53 PM	#28
Bart Walczak Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Warsaw/Poland Posts: 716	I was trying to make it work with some XDCAM clips that I got, but so far - no success. I'm waiting for the answer from their support. We'll see. Essentially what we need is an AVI wrapper for MXF files... Shouldn't be that hard to do. I sincerely hope that blackmagic will support MXF soon, since we already own Multibridge Pro.

December 4th, 2006, 10:29 PM	#29
Jimi King Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Long Beach New York Posts: 36	Any movies shot on 350? Does anyone know if there are any movies shot on 350 or 330?I would like to know if it would be a good choice to go with 350 instead H1 for my feature. JK

December 5th, 2006, 02:19 AM	#30
Steve Connor Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK Posts: 383	The 330 is a much better choice for your feature than the H1 for all the reasons listed above!