XDCAM HD and FireStore (likes)

[Vincent Rozenberg]

Hi there XDCAM HD People..

I'm in the market for a new camera and the XDCAM HD PDW F350 is becoming a serious option. Considering the fact that here in The Netherlands HD is not accepted as a format yet by the TV stations, most of the daily work is going to be still in SD (DVCAM mode). For my other things, short movies, commercial work and motion design the HD options are justified.

One of the good benefits of good ol' DV tape is dat almost every journalist, director etc. I work with has a spot and log deck at home; the simple dinkytoys 1ccd camcorder.. This is obviously not with XDCAM. So bit of a problem there..

So what I was thinking, Hook up a FireStore or likes to the FireWire port on the F350, select somewhere in the menu that the output is DV/DVCAM and you got yourself a copy you can give to the director/jornalist for timecode spotting on their PC/MAC. The XDCAM disc with the footage, HD or SD, can be saved and if needed only used for capturing to the editset if source is HD.

Does someone know if this is going to work? Are there any XDCAM HD 350/330 owners out here who owns a Firestore to check this (in potential wonderful) workflow?

A big thank you in advance!

[Nate Weaver]

Isn't the point of XDCAM is go tapeless without all the unreliability of Firestores?

If you're wanting to hand a client files at the end of the shoot, I'd just carry a laptop and do FAMs for them at the end of the day.

[Greg Boston]

Vincent,

What you want to do will work if necessary. The camera can shoot HD, and provide a downconverted live DVCAM output via firewire. I'm not certain that the camera has DV control out like the Canon XL2 and others. Without that, you would have to manually start/stop your firestore unit. You can even choose to crop the 16:9 to 4:3, either live or after the fact. The downconvert is very versatile with this camera.

-gb-

[Bob Willis]

This might be of interest

http://www.sonybiz.net/images/produc...DR60(brch).pdf

[Vincent Rozenberg]

Originally Posted by Nate Weaver

Isn't the point of XDCAM is go tapeless without all the unreliability of Firestores?

Hi Nate, You're right, but I'm not relying on the Firestore, it's just an instant copy for them. Still record to XDCAM for the 'reel' that goes directly to the video editor. The director/journalist is not in the editsuite when the editor is putting the first edit together, so two instant copy's would become very handy, just email the timecodelist and go..

If you're wanting to hand a client files at the end of the shoot, I'd just carry a laptop and do FAMs for them at the end of the day.

Could do, but how less it is, it will cost time. Most of the weeks I'm shooting 4 or 5 days and all you want at the end of the day is go home. So a FireStore will do the same without the hassle..

@ Greg Boston: Thanks for the info! About the DV control; I hope that it will provide time code or so, otherwise it will not work in our workflow..

@ Bob Willis: Thanks, I''m aware of that unit, saw it @ the IBC this year.


@ all: thanks for the input.

[Nate Weaver]

I think you're going to run into problems with the camera not sending the HDR a control signal to record. There's nothing in the cameras menus about this.

I think your best bet/compromise is going to be giving them proxy files. It's fast to take them off each disc (maybe do it during breaks after each disc is done during the day), and they're small enough to be easy to copy around.

I realize this is a personal opinion, but firestores seem to be terribly unreliable devices...

[Vincent Rozenberg]

Thanks Nate, for thinking along with me. About the proxy files, how big are they? For example, a full disk, how many MB's?

[Greg Boston]

Originally Posted by Vincent Rozenberg

Thanks Nate, for thinking along with me. About the proxy files, how big are they? For example, a full disk, how many MB's?

On a disc we filled earlier this week during a shoot, the proxies totalled about 1gb. These are MPEG4 files and are TIMECODE ACCURATE to the full resolution file. One of the reasons for having them is the scenario you are describing. They are also meant to be transmitted via internet to a distant editor who can begin the edit before ever having the full resolution files available (ie crew still on location).

If you elect to go DVCAM out the firewire port, you will indeed get timecode, but as I said, and Nate re-iterated, there is no DV control output that I'm aware of. That's something I will check on for sure.

-gb-

[Vincent Rozenberg]

Thanks Greg!

So thinking about that, is there an option to hook up a Flashcard/HD or so to the F350 and transfer the Proxy's to it? Or does it need a computer/laptop intermediate?

It's not that I'm lazy, but I know how we al feel @ the end of the day and the quicker the better. Beside that, A laptop is not always available to me. On the other hand, laptops are cheap these days.. Cheaper than a firestore.

[Greg Boston]

Originally Posted by Vincent Rozenberg

Thanks Greg!

So thinking about that, is there an option to hook up a Flashcard/HD or so to the F350 and transfer the Proxy's to it? Or does it need a computer/laptop intermediate?

It's not that I'm lazy, but I know how we al feel @ the end of the day and the quicker the better. Beside that, A laptop is not always available to me. On the other hand, laptops are cheap these days.. Cheaper than a firestore.

You'll need to use the supplied Proxy Browsing Software on the Windows platform, or the XDCAM Transfer Application on OSX. The files exist on the disc in MXF format and have to be unwrapped to be usable.

Also note that there is NO streaming HD output via FW. You can only copy the files containing HD video via FW. For straight HD output, you use HDSDI on the 350, or component output on the 330.

-gb-

[Vincent Rozenberg]

Originally Posted by Greg Boston

You'll need to use the supplied Proxy Browsing Software on the Windows platform, or the XDCAM Transfer Application on OSX. The files exist on the disc in MXF format and have to be unwrapped to be usable.

Also note that there is NO streaming HD output via FW. You can only copy the files containing HD video via FW. For straight HD output, you use HDSDI on the 350, or component output on the 330.

-gb-

Thanks, yes, I did know this.


So to change the initial question a bit, what is the workflow of you guys? Greg, you're uploading your proxies, on a daily basis? Or just one project? How do you guys handle the fact that most of the people do not have XDCAM viewing options? Or is there no need to it 'cause of the fact that your type of business does not demand it?

Again thanks in advance!

[Nate Weaver]

I myself run my own production company, so I have no responsibility to provide any sort of rushes to anybody. Just rough edits to client.

As far as delivery, here in the states people deliver HD on HDCAM or D5, pretty much exclusively if they're delivering an end product. So XDCAM is just an acquisition format for me, ditched as soon as the material is in the computer. I deliver my first XDCAM HD acquired project this next week, on HDCAM.

There aren't enough people here in Los Angeles shooting XDCAM or XDCAM HD to make it a smart thing for a freelance cameraman to own.

[Vincent Rozenberg]

Thanks Nate!

Here also a small production company owner, but with a lot of freelance journalists/directors walking around who are used to watch and spot the footage at their warm and cosy homes..

HD is nothing at the moment here in The Netherlands, only a bit if you do movies.. XDCAM on the other hand is huge! almost every new drama series or tv show is shot on it, but not on HD XDCAM...

Now what if Sony comes with a cheap XDCAM HD read out device, like the PDW-D1 for SD, then I could buy a couple.. I think I saw a prototype at this years IBC but I can not find a thing on the internet about it.

[Nate Weaver]

Originally Posted by Vincent Rozenberg

Here also a small production company owner, but with a lot of freelance journalists/directors walking around who are used to watch and spot the footage at their warm and cosy homes..

That's what the proxies are for...easy logging.

H

Originally Posted by Vincent Rozenberg

Now what if Sony comes with a cheap XDCAM HD read out device, like the PDW-D1 for SD, then I could buy a couple.. I think I saw a prototype at this years IBC but I can not find a thing on the internet about it.

You did, Alister from this board delivered the news of it to us since he was working the Sony booth, and gave us a rough $2k euro price.

[Vincent Rozenberg]

Ha! Light at the end of the tunnel then! ;-)