First look at Sony XDCAM HD

[Ken Johnes]

...of course then, you must accept the world "as is" and live your life as happily as you are allowed... *not* try to contribute for something better...
But I must add that even a weird large DIY near-sighted box might give you more pleasure than an HDCAM that your rich girlfriend bought you on your birthday!
This justifies masochism during research! :>)

[Simon Wyndham]

Not if I have to lug it up a Scottish mountain it wouldn't :)

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

I doubt it. It has come in for a lot of criticism because of its bulky size. It makes shooting very awkward at times. No company in their right mind would build a camera that was bulky and awkward with a view that it 'looks impressive to the intended market'. It doesn't work that way, and feature filmmakers don't decide on equipment usage in such materialistic ways.

Sorry, it looked small (had trouble finding the size for a quick reply) compared to film cameras I have seen, it must be a lot bigger than it looks, or uses external recorder. But what I say still holds, don't expect them to make a handy cam rather than something bigger than a z1, unless it is really low cost.

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

Tell you what. You guys go and make your 3" long camera using mirrors and 3D holographic image capture with a RRSP of $1.50 and then come back when you've done it.

In the mean time I'll just enjoy the cameras that I can actually go out and buy right now.

:)

It doesn't have anything to do with holograms.

With that sort of attitude, the camera company that bought the competitions camera instead of making something better, would, likely go broke ;) (now do you see what we are getting at, we would not be here to play tiddlies with our cameras, but to make something better, we play tiddlies with ideas and design... ;).

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Ken Johnes

Wayne, I cannot understand what you mean about the 3d technique you mentioned. You speak about a 8 foot or 60 foot(!) mirror lense? You mean foot as a measure of length (or diameter) or something else? Can you explain?

Anyway, the magic keyword is "mirror" as the answer to Simon's argument about heavy lenses! That's what I meant!

You, mean, we're on the same wave length, this is incredible, somebody at dvinfo that thinks like me ;). I love engineers (unless you try to go in business with them and they flake off rather than work).

Sorry I mean diameter, because the lens is so wide it shits around the sides of objects. Ordinary cameras do this too, and it can be used for partial surround imaging, but the lens is so small as to only give a very limited effect. So say we had a theoretical 60 foot version (which would virtually never be used because it is impractical) in front of a band stage, you would get the data to position yourself anywhere in a virtual audience, really cool, and I just got another idea that makes it even better.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=54884

Is the thread, don't worry about the content, there were a few people dogging me, that I showed up.

[Denise Haskew]

Showreel will be getting hold of the F350 XDCAM HD this Thursday. The test will be published in our first US edition, which will be launched at NAB. If anyone has any particular queries, email them to our editor Steve Parker (steve@showreel.org), and he'll pass them on to our tester.

The magazine will be available on several stands, which I'll let you know about closer to the event. If any US-based folk would like to receive a free copy of the US issue, drop me a line at denise@showreel.org.

All the best

Denise
Publisher
Showreel magazine
"tomorrow the world"

[Simon Wyndham]

Hi Denise,

Or alternatively they can ask me direct. I'll be happy to answer any questions about any issues, or anything anyone might particularly like me to test out with the camera. :D

[Denise Haskew]

Thanks Simon.

[Ken Johnes]

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

You, mean, we're on the same wave length, this is incredible, somebody at dvinfo that thinks like me ;)

Maybe Wayne, I don't know, maybe we are more on the creative-enthusiastic side...

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

. I love engineers (unless you try to go in business with them and they flake off rather than work).

Or ...working "in vacation mode"! :)

Your ideas about extracting 3d information from the way the image is focused, or about re-focus the image, sounds very interesting, but also difficult to me. You might discover some serious limitations if you go deeper in practice but nevertheless you might find some very useful applications. My theory is that wherever you dig, you *will* eventually find gold in research, as long as you keep digging. That's the beauty of research, it's like "what do you want to discover today?"

I would suggest you to try simulate your ideas (these or others) to a level that is self-proven and then you could easily demonstrate and attract sponsors or other people that would be interested to help you. Or simply try to implement them to a degree that proves the theory.

By the way, the coincidence is that I'm almost close to finish developing a 3d related device -though in a different area (but unfortunately I can't tell anything about this right now).

Sorry about being *a lot* off topic. I will try to balance my post(s) a bit, by saying that I am going to buy an hdv camera soon and I wish it was the XDCAM but unfortunately a) it's currently out of my reach b) I need it in a few days, so I'll have to go for a less wonderful one, maybe Z1 (trying to decide).

Anyway, I'm very interested about the review.

[Simon Wyndham]

There has been a hold up with the F350, so the test will now be with the F330 instead. However it is being supplied with a Canon 2/3" HD lens and the 2/3" lens adaptor, along with the F70 deck. So anything any of you guys want me to look at specificially just give me a shout.

[Ken Johnes]

I thought of a few things that I would be very interested of:

1. How many *linear* stops of latitude is the F330 capable of (with a linear gamma curve if one exists, or with a compensating technique to get the same result).

2. A snapshot of a standard res chart performance (that's original! :)

3. An *in-lab* test to the limits, for chromatic aberration at full wide angle (preferably measured than subjectively observed) including a comparison with another well known HD lens.

4. What is the drop of resolving power (definition) from the center of the lens to the sides at full wide angle with large aperture (preferably a curve).

5. The lux rating for sensitivity.

6. How sensitive is the camera to vibrations/movements during recording. Is it easy, rare or impossible to reach the threshold where the recording performance will be noticeably affected? (eg the recording duration would be very much decreased or worse, so can anyone record inside a fast motor boat in a wavy sea? Will then the recording duration be the same or ...halfed? )

7. And of course, is it *totally* safe to record on the optical disc?


Thanks.

[Wayne Morellini]

Warning: Unless you are interested in innovation, say with Digital Cinema cameras, new lens adaptor for HD XDCAM etc. You might want to skip most of this.

Originally Posted by Ken Johnes

Your ideas about extracting 3d information from the way the image is focused, or about re-focus the image, sounds very interesting, but also difficult to me. You might discover some serious limitations if you go deeper in practice but nevertheless you might find some very useful applications. My theory is that wherever you dig, you *will* eventually find gold in research, as long as you keep digging. That's the beauty of research, it's like "what do you want to discover today?"

It does have limitations, you can't expect the same precision of sample as compared to raw data, but it does real 3D depth and some direct surround. Enough, I think, to be very useful. It is not very complex, the procedures needed are easy enough, the maths for them is not, but it is very procedural, and lots of it (processor intensive). This is limited on todays processors, but things like the "Sea of Processors" Chuck Moore's scheme, Cell, Clearspeed (that AMD now is in talks with for a co processor) Ambarella (a hundred or two SPARC processors on one chip) and future GPU's and Processor In Memory, make this very possible. You want to see something that really consumes power, I understand that Intel has some sort of resolution upscaling scheme that takes 100 hours per frame.

I would suggest you to try simulate your ideas (these or others) to a level that is self-proven and then you could easily demonstrate and attract sponsors or other people that would be interested to help you. Or simply try to implement them to a degree that proves the theory.

A credible idea is a credible idea, it is provable logically and these are self evident enough to those logical/smart enough to perceive it (and we are talking about seeing and feeling down the design curve for obstacles, twists and turns from the start) who are welcome on the ground floor. There is a lot of knowledge/and understanding, of the factors that goes into this, of course.

About working on ideas, I have some real ideas I am working on, like the VOS system. Unfortunately, some other ideas have to suffer and get left behind, some I have posted here for prudent people, but where. I am only able to work on a few of them because of sickness. I can work with people on these ideas, design them, and guide the implementation process. Much like an architect, or good garden landscape designer, will earn his living from designing and guiding, rather than building.

The problem is that I am a very sick disabled person, I have a number of health problems that go up and down like a yo yo, but usually below good health. I am seriously trying to get my health up so that I can implement and accomplish the things I want independently. Because of these problems, I am no longer athletic, often I can do little constructively but think/design, read, and not even that sometimes, but thinking, analysing and understanding are my strong points, and best talent, and I still deliver.

What you say about implementing and marketing ideas, I need help in this area because of the health problems. It is not as simple as it seems, and very costly, plus 150 pages of professionally written business/market analysis/plan, and very tricky, because of the requirements Intellectual Property laws. Most people that "invent" something really new, that don't have the money, and team, fail, and for armatures the figure is very high. Most can't even get a business to take it on, I think. It is one of the worst forms of business endeavours to get into, and I advise people to stay away. Usually, a lot of work and money goes in before you hit a result. There are cheap strategies to get a buyer, but I still need to work with people.

By the way, the coincidence is that I'm almost close to finish developing a 3d related device -though in a different area (but unfortunately I can't tell anything about this right now).

That's interesting, in my VOS design I have come up with a very simple and economical, alternative 3D strategy to use a small fraction of the processing power and near photo perfect results. Even though I keep notes on the various solutions to the problems, it is not due to be implemented until generation two of my OS. You could implement it in a FPGA (or two) and beat most modern graphic cards. What 3D area is yours in?

The simple, economical, approach is what I use most often for solutions. Actually, the more complex form of my 3D starts to remind me, a bit, of nurbs (through I am unfamiliar with them) but faster.

[Simon Wyndham]

Hi Ken,

I will do my best to accomodate your requests. Although I can answer wuestions 6 and 7 right now as I have owned one of the current XDCAM's for over a year now.

These cameras are actually more robust and resistant to vibrations and shock than tape based cameras. There is absolutely no effect on the picture whatsoever. In fact when Sony ran their torture tests with the system the Digibeta camera actually unthreaded its tape when they were on a powerboat that performed a 360 degree spin. The XDCAM was unaffected. Heat and humidity is also not a problem with this system.

It is totally safe to record to the disc. I have never lost any footage, and the only people I know who have lost footage have found out that they muddled up their discs and subsequently found the one with their footage on it!

XDCAM has a very sophisticated file recovery system as well. So for example, if you managed to accidentally open the protective case cover and damage one part of the write surface of the disc, the XDCAM system will do its best to recover all the footage that is on the unaffected parts. The discs are very well protected to begin with though so this scenario is very unlikely.

[Ken Johnes]

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

A credible idea is a credible idea, it is provable logically and these are self evident enough to those logical/smart enough to perceive it (and we are talking about seeing and feeling down the design curve for obstacles, twists and turns from the start) who are welcome on the ground floor. There is a lot of knowledge/and understanding, of the factors that goes into this, of course.

I agree but, It's just that I like the feeling of *Prove first and let-them-beg-you-for-the-details after* tactic. :)

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

The problem is that I am a very sick disabled person, I have a number of health problems that go up and down like a yo yo, but usually below good health. I am seriously trying to get my health up so that I can implement and accomplish the things I want independently. Because of these problems, I am no longer athletic, often I can do little constructively but think/design, read, and not even that sometimes, but thinking, analysing and understanding are my strong points, and best talent, and I still deliver.

If you have health problems and still "deliver" as you say, then I have to congratulate you for your creative persistence and enthousiasm, I'm sure you beat most of the other "athletic" types...

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

About working on ideas, I have some real ideas I am working on, like the VOS system.

What's that?

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

Unfortunately, some other ideas have to suffer and get left behind, some I have posted here for prudent people, but where. I am only able to work on a few of them because of sickness. I can work with people on these ideas, design them, and guide the implementation process. Much like an architect, or good garden landscape designer, will earn his living from designing and guiding, rather than building.

The problem is that I am a very sick disabled person, I have a number of health problems that go up and down like a yo yo, but usually below good health. I am seriously trying to get my health up so that I can implement and accomplish the things I want independently. Because of these problems, I am no longer athletic, often I can do little constructively but think/design, read, and not even that sometimes, but thinking, analysing and understanding are my strong points, and best talent, and I still deliver.

What you say about implementing and marketing ideas, I need help in this area because of the health problems. It is not as simple as it seems, and very costly, plus 150 pages of professionally written business/market analysis/plan, and very tricky, because of the requirements Intellectual Property laws. Most people that "invent" something really new, that don't have the money, and team, fail, and for armatures the figure is very high. Most can't even get a business to take it on, I think. It is one of the worst forms of business endeavours to get into, and I advise people to stay away. Usually, a lot of work and money goes in before you hit a result. There are cheap strategies to get a buyer, but I still need to work with people.

Then you are totally justified to prefer being the "architect" instead of the builder. If you are interested commercially you should think of the easiest way to spot and attract "builders" as well as sponsors. Maybe a specialized forum would be ideal for this but it needs a good strategy.

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

That's interesting, in my VOS design I have come up with a very simple and economical, alternative 3D strategy to use a small fraction of the processing power and near photo perfect results. Even though I keep notes on the various solutions to the problems, it is not due to be implemented until generation two of my OS. You could implement it in a FPGA (or two) and beat most modern graphic cards.

Hehe, "near photo perfect results" from a new kind of 3d engine is the theoretical result from another idea I left behind a couple of years ago but it is scheduled to be continued in about six months from now if everything goes well...

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

What 3D area is yours in?

Stereoscopy.

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

The simple, economical, approach is what I use most often for solutions. Actually, the more complex form of my 3D starts to remind me, a bit, of nurbs (through I am unfamiliar with them) but faster.

Oh no, did all my notes leak to the internet ??? :)

[Ken Johnes]

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

Hi Ken,

I will do my best to accomodate your requests. Although I can answer wuestions 6 and 7 right now as I have owned one of the current XDCAM's for over a year now.

These cameras are actually more robust and resistant to vibrations and shock than tape based cameras. There is absolutely no effect on the picture whatsoever. In fact when Sony ran their torture tests with the system the Digibeta camera actually unthreaded its tape when they were on a powerboat that performed a 360 degree spin. The XDCAM was unaffected. Heat and humidity is also not a problem with this system.

It is totally safe to record to the disc. I have never lost any footage, and the only people I know who have lost footage have found out that they muddled up their discs and subsequently found the one with their footage on it!

XDCAM has a very sophisticated file recovery system as well. So for example, if you managed to accidentally open the protective case cover and damage one part of the write surface of the disc, the XDCAM system will do its best to recover all the footage that is on the unaffected parts. The discs are very well protected to begin with though so this scenario is very unlikely.

Thank you Simon, I'm looking forward to read the results.

Although other technologies are getting better and cheaper day by day, it seems that sony can offer now the most economical way of unlimited storage that is also efficient and reliable. If only they released a camera in hdv price range with the same recording ability, they would be ahead of the competiton for at least two-three years...