First look at Sony XDCAM HD

Joe Carney · February 20th, 2006, 10:56 AM

The new XDCAM HD is HDV, not 4:2:2 anymore. Doesn't mean it will be bad or anything, but aside from recording media, not an across the board comparison for those currently using XDCAM SD.

Graeme Nattress · February 20th, 2006, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

Had a play with one the other day though. I liked it, although I'm waiting to be able to test one out in anger as some have told me that it isn't full res progressive scan. And since one of them is Graeme I have to take it pretty seriously!

In 50hz mode, any fps less than and including 25p is full rez, but any fps higher, is half rez.

In 60hz mode, any fps less than and including 30p is full rez, but any fps higher, is half rez.

That's because it's basically a 1080i50 or 1080i60 camera, so it's not surprising it can't support 50p or 60p full rez. I couldn't get any answer on the vertical rez of the 30p or 25p though, whether it's interlaced filtered or not, and whether that's switchable.

This info came to me direct from the Canadian product manager.

Graeme

Joe Carney · February 20th, 2006, 11:15 AM

Thanks Graeme, makes sense. Sounds a lot like the Canon HD in the way it approaches HD resolution. (no flames please, hehehe).

David Heath · February 20th, 2006, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Risdon

I think he's concerned that it may go the way of Betacam SX. He was suggesting that P2 is going to be the format of choice, ........

Maybe P2, but let's also not forget the Infinity. One advantage of both is that no deck is needed for NLE capture, just plug in to the PCMCIA or CF slot and transfer to harddrive. And the Infinity has the option of consumable media as an alternative. Seems to me that if possible there's a lot to be said for waiting, and seeing which way others jump. And the longer things go on, the more attractive solid state seems for acquisition.

I've seen the occasional XDCAM on the road, but tape still seems to make up the overwhelming majority of 2/3" cameras in daily use. Even saw a Beta SP camera used the other day!

Scott Aston · February 20th, 2006, 12:07 PM

Let me see if I undterstand this. If the F350 is shooting at the 1080 24p mode then it is full rez. with true progressive. If I overcrank to lets say 48fps then it is half rez?

Graeme Nattress · February 20th, 2006, 12:26 PM

Yes, overcranking to 48fps is half rez. All frame rates for progressive > 30fps are half rez, as are all above 25fps in PAL modes. 24p would be a 60hz based mode, hence 48fps, being greater than 30fps must be half rez.

Graeme

Simon Wyndham · February 27th, 2006, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Risdon

Hi Simon
Yeah - I thought it was strange as well - I was up for buying one! I think he's concerned that it may go the way of Betacam SX. He was suggesteing that P2 is going to be the format of choice, but how long will it be before you can do 2 hours on a P2!!
Anyhow, I love your work on the website... Are you going to upgrade to XDCAM HD?

Hi Graham, thanks for the compliment! :)

Upgrading to XDCAM HD is certainly in the back of my mind. However I am awaiting to see the lye of the land. I want to know if Sony are going to make any announcements or comments about a 2/3" version at NAB. And I also want to see what the RED guys have up their sleeves.

Certainly if I knew I could make the money back from HD production an XDCAM HD would be a good purchase. But looking at it from mainly a DVD producers point of view I'm not sure I could justify it right at this moment. Definitely keeping one eye open to the possibility though.

Jason Rodriguez · February 27th, 2006, 02:19 PM

Not sure about the over-cranked footage, I would defer to Graeme on that info, but I had my hands on a XDCAM-HD camera for a couple minutes and was able to download the footage off the disks. We shot 60i and 24p and those frame-rates are definitely full-res.

Jason Rodriguez
Post Production Artist
Virginia Beach, VA

Scott Aston · February 27th, 2006, 09:36 PM

Jason,

I would love to see those clips! Any chance you can upload a few samples? If not, how did the image look? What lens did they have on the camera? Canon AF or Fujinon? Also, was it the F330 or F350 that you played with?

Wayne Morellini · March 2nd, 2006, 07:12 AM

Seen it today myself. I got to say this is the sort of thing I want as a minimum, the sort of codec quality I wished that HDV consumer had.

They had some local footage, and I did a close inspection, sizing for a cinema field of view from 1/4 from the front seating. They had some HDV footage (a Z1 I think) of a well lit rodeo (some noise, but I don't think enough to worry codec performance too much) so I compared to that on true HD monitors. Footage from the HD XDcam turned out to have smooth and cleaner picture, better latitude and motion etc, but the colour in the greens did not look quiet perfect (on any camera). At this field of view, the picture looked good enough for cinema, not high end cinema, while the HDV looked suitable for basic cinema quality. It was what I expected from the HDV, but the HD xdcam was what I hoped from HDV.

Please note, I have been involved in RAW uncompressed digital cinema camera projects here, but I am not implying the XD camera is anywhere near the quality of uncompressed RAW.

I questioned some the reps, though they did not know any figures, but suspected that the variable bitrate could go 50Mb/s. This undoubtedly would be what has led to the superior picture quality (apart from newer 1/2 inch chip).

As a contrast, I was speaking with a local guy that does shooting for the international market, and uses Digital beta, he was also closely examining footage and did not find it good enough for himself.

Kevin Shaw · March 2nd, 2006, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Call

You'll get 40 minutes on the newly announced Panasonic HD camera (AJ-HPC2000) this camera accepts five (5) P2 cards. That's with five (5) 8GB P2 cards installed but I read that the 16GB P2 cards will be announced at NAB 2006 so it looks like you'll get 80 minutes record time on the new P2 HD camera when its released!

At current prices, five 16 GB P2 cards would cost you at least $18,000, or about as much as the camera itself. That may be fine for major TV networks and a few corporate video producers, but the pricing rules out most independent videographers. Compare that to XDCAM HD discs which cost about $20/hour for full-quality recording, and it's easy to see which is the more practical format for the next 3-5 years or so. If we could get XDCAM HD in a sub-$10K camera with a fixed lens and 1/2" sensors, that would be more useful than anything else proposed so far.

Graeme Nattress · March 2nd, 2006, 07:42 AM

AFAIK, the variable bitrate maxes out at 35mbit/s, but can go lower to give you more record time. Makes sense.

Graeme

Wayne Morellini · March 2nd, 2006, 09:02 AM

The Sony Rep/or Pro dealer, gets a bit confusing now, told me that it was only the average, that it does go higher, which makes sense. So which is true? At 35Mb/s for 60 minutes equals around 15.75GB+, on a 25GB disk (?) that doesn't help, as the maximum doesn't max out the disk.

Anybody?

Graeme Nattress · March 2nd, 2006, 09:28 AM

I wish I knew. We're both going of what Sony have told us, but we're not speaking directly to the Japanese engineers. From their FAQ: "Recording time is over 60 minutes at 35 Mbps". You've got to leave room for thumbnails and proxies too though on the disc space calculations.

Graeme

Simon Wyndham · March 3rd, 2006, 11:39 AM

Interesting, thanks for the res info Graeme. Its luck then that I have more use for speeds like 22fps than higher framerates. Although I think I could put up with half res slow mo for short shots.

Still a bit of a shame though.

February 20th, 2006, 12:07 PM	#20
Scott Aston Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 75	Let me see if I undterstand this. If the F350 is shooting at the 1080 24p mode then it is full rez. with true progressive. If I overcrank to lets say 48fps then it is half rez? __________________ Scott Aston Eyecon Pictures, Inc.

February 20th, 2006, 12:26 PM	#21
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	Yes, overcranking to 48fps is half rez. All frame rates for progressive > 30fps are half rez, as are all above 25fps in PAL modes. 24p would be a 60hz based mode, hence 48fps, being greater than 30fps must be half rez. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

February 27th, 2006, 09:36 PM	#24
Scott Aston Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 75	Jason, I would love to see those clips! Any chance you can upload a few samples? If not, how did the image look? What lens did they have on the camera? Canon AF or Fujinon? Also, was it the F330 or F350 that you played with? __________________ Scott Aston Eyecon Pictures, Inc.

March 2nd, 2006, 07:42 AM	#27
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	AFAIK, the variable bitrate maxes out at 35mbit/s, but can go lower to give you more record time. Makes sense. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

March 2nd, 2006, 09:28 AM	#29
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	I wish I knew. We're both going of what Sony have told us, but we're not speaking directly to the Japanese engineers. From their FAQ: "Recording time is over 60 minutes at 35 Mbps". You've got to leave room for thumbnails and proxies too though on the disc space calculations. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

February 20th, 2006, 10:56 AM	#16
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	The new XDCAM HD is HDV, not 4:2:2 anymore. Doesn't mean it will be bad or anything, but aside from recording media, not an across the board comparison for those currently using XDCAM SD.

February 20th, 2006, 11:15 AM	#18
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	Thanks Graeme, makes sense. Sounds a lot like the Canon HD in the way it approaches HD resolution. (no flames please, hehehe).

February 27th, 2006, 02:19 PM	#23
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Not sure about the over-cranked footage, I would defer to Graeme on that info, but I had my hands on a XDCAM-HD camera for a couple minutes and was able to download the footage off the disks. We shot 60i and 24p and those frame-rates are definitely full-res. Jason Rodriguez Post Production Artist Virginia Beach, VA

March 2nd, 2006, 07:12 AM	#25
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Seen it today myself. I got to say this is the sort of thing I want as a minimum, the sort of codec quality I wished that HDV consumer had. They had some local footage, and I did a close inspection, sizing for a cinema field of view from 1/4 from the front seating. They had some HDV footage (a Z1 I think) of a well lit rodeo (some noise, but I don't think enough to worry codec performance too much) so I compared to that on true HD monitors. Footage from the HD XDcam turned out to have smooth and cleaner picture, better latitude and motion etc, but the colour in the greens did not look quiet perfect (on any camera). At this field of view, the picture looked good enough for cinema, not high end cinema, while the HDV looked suitable for basic cinema quality. It was what I expected from the HDV, but the HD xdcam was what I hoped from HDV. Please note, I have been involved in RAW uncompressed digital cinema camera projects here, but I am not implying the XD camera is anywhere near the quality of uncompressed RAW. I questioned some the reps, though they did not know any figures, but suspected that the variable bitrate could go 50Mb/s. This undoubtedly would be what has led to the superior picture quality (apart from newer 1/2 inch chip). As a contrast, I was speaking with a local guy that does shooting for the international market, and uses Digital beta, he was also closely examining footage and did not find it good enough for himself.

March 2nd, 2006, 09:02 AM	#28
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	The Sony Rep/or Pro dealer, gets a bit confusing now, told me that it was only the average, that it does go higher, which makes sense. So which is true? At 35Mb/s for 60 minutes equals around 15.75GB+, on a 25GB disk (?) that doesn't help, as the maximum doesn't max out the disk. Anybody?

March 3rd, 2006, 11:39 AM	#30
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	Interesting, thanks for the res info Graeme. Its luck then that I have more use for speeds like 22fps than higher framerates. Although I think I could put up with half res slow mo for short shots. Still a bit of a shame though.