Sony introduces 1/2" HD XDCAM for $20K

Mike Marriage · February 8th, 2006, 04:08 PM

Simon beat me to it! I take it you were at VideoForum?

The 350 was hooked up to the LCD when I was playing first thing on Tuesday, but someone must have broken something, because by the afternoon it wasn't and we couldn't get it back up again.

Scott Aston · February 8th, 2006, 04:08 PM

Simon,

It is to my understanding that if you just want to shoot and edit with the XDCAM, there is no need for a deck..am I right?

Simon Wyndham · February 8th, 2006, 04:17 PM

Mike, were you looking at the 330 (silver) or the 350 (black)? The 350 I was looking at had a really crappy piece of Canon glass on it (not even HD glass!) The 330 had the Canon lens that was designed for it though.

I would say it is smaller than the 750, but not by much. The 750 uses an IMX shell like the current SD XDCAM's. the HD XDCAM uses a similar body to the 450. Although I thought it was quite heavy considering. It did actually feel heavier than my 510!

The disk can't be read in a Blu-Ray drive no. But for the level of production the 330 and 350 are aimed at, due to the use of disc rather than tape, they can be used as decks quite effectively without worry.

Post support is the only real sticking point. Apparently Avid already has support for it in their higher end NLE's (which I suppose kind of defies the point of a low cost HD solution!) There is also one other that I can't mention. As for other companies I don't know.

I'm torn. I know for low budget stuff this camera would be fantastic. But the price still seems a bit steep. I was quoted 20k UKP for the camera without lens for the 350. The 330 is cheaper of course, but no variable framerates. £20k almost buys a PDW530! I hope the salesman was misquoting the Dollars figure by mistake. £20k sounds too much. EVen if it cost $25k that is still only around 13k UKP which is more reasonable.

Simon Wyndham · February 8th, 2006, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Marriage

Simon beat me to it! I take it you were at VideoForum?

The 350 was hooked up to the LCD when I was playing first thing on Tuesday, but someone must have broken something, because by the afternoon it wasn't and we couldn't get it back up again.

Yep, was at Video Forum today. The LCD was just playing a demo off the deck today.

Scott, you are right. A deck is more practical, but the cameras can be used quite effectively as decks.

Mike Marriage · February 8th, 2006, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

Mike, were you looking at the 330 (silver) or the 350 (black)? The 350 I was looking at had a really crappy piece of Canon glass on it (not even HD glass!) The 330 had the Canon lens that was designed for it though.

I was looking at the 350 mainly.

I'm sure you are right about the lens. To be honest I was concentrating on the camera and trying to figure out the frame rates, unsuccessfully. Did you see it with the 2/3" lens on a converter? The rep commented on it saying you could put "decent 2/3" glass on it" and I took that to mean that is what they had done. Sorry, a careless error, discard my comment.

Anyway, it still looked pretty sharp on the LCD, but a crappy lens could explain the CA. The recorded footage also showed a fair bit of abberation. That was when I asked the rep about it and he mentioned the prism.

My point was that the prism/CA may be worth testing if you get one on test drive. Like anything at these shows, my "play" was pretty rushed.

Scott Aston · February 8th, 2006, 05:34 PM

I'm curious if transferring data out of the NLE to the disk in the camera can be done via firewire. If so, why buy a deck?

Simon Wyndham · February 8th, 2006, 05:42 PM

I didn't see it with the 2/3" adaptor. But honestly I don't think I would be interested because of the loss of field of view (1.37 times the focal length of the lens you are using).

I will definitely give the CA very close examination if I manage to test one.

Scott, the XDCAM cameras and decks have two ways of transferring via firewire. The first is via standard footage playback as per any other firewire camera. The XDCAM HD can record in a format compatible with current NLE's. But I am not sure if the 35mbps variable datarate can be played through firewire.

The second method is called FAM (File Access Mode). When this is enabled the camera acts like another drive on the computer and the video files can be dragged and dropped onto your hard drive much like digital photos from a stills camera.

The SD cameras also have an Ethernet option via an optional card, but I am not sure if the new XDCAM HD's can do this.

Scott Aston · February 8th, 2006, 05:50 PM

That's good news! So while in FAM I can drag and drop video files to the NLE and drag and drop back to the camera disk. That's nice! I am really looking forward to NAB this year and getting a hands on look at this camera. One thing about the pricing, from the brochure the only real difference I see between the F330 and the F350 is the SDI out and variable framerates. F330 $16,800 MSRP
and the F350 at $25,000. That's a big price difference. So I guess the question is how bad do I want the variable framerate?

Simon Wyndham · February 8th, 2006, 06:02 PM

You can drag right onto the timeline from the disc yes. But the better method is to copy the files you want to your hard drive first for much faster access. I wouldn't recommend editing from the disc.

Generally I use either PDZ1 or double click on the proxy files in the Sub folder on the disc to view them in the MXF viewer to quickly see which files I want. Then I just go to the Clips folder of the disc and copy the equivalent clip numbers in high res form to my editing hard drive.

Your final edit will most probably be output to DVD or video of some kind. So no need to copy or create MXF files back to disc usually. When the camera formats an XDCAM disc it reserves 500mb for general storage.

So when I finish a project that I want to keep I will copy my NLE file (in my case a Vegas VEG) to this General folder on the disc that contains the original footage. I will also copy any supplementary files such as title graphics or animation I have created (or if animations are too large I just output back to the disc as per normal playback and the camera creates the file on the disc for me in the CLIP and SUB folders). This way if I want to recreate a project I have all the original clips plus my NLE and supplementary files in one tidy archive. You can even copy the script there too if you want. Anything really.

I am not sure about the price difference between the 330 and 350. It does seem a lot for HD SDI and variable framerate abilities.

Graeme Nattress · February 8th, 2006, 06:19 PM

It's not how badly you want the variable frame rates, but how bad the >30fps framesrates look. They're half rez.

Graeme

Robert Mann Z. · February 8th, 2006, 06:28 PM

edius will edit xdcam natively off the disc and in rt and i know vegas is suppose to have an update as well...

Graeme Nattress · February 8th, 2006, 06:30 PM

The Sony people said they'd got pretty much everyone lined up to edit it.

Graeme

Mike Marriage · February 9th, 2006, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

I didn't see it with the 2/3" adaptor. But honestly I don't think I would be interested because of the loss of field of view (1.37 times the focal length of the lens you are using).

I sounds like it had a different lens on when I saw it then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

So when I finish a project that I want to keep I will copy my NLE file (in my case a Vegas VEG) to this General folder on the disc that contains the original footage. I will also copy any supplementary files such as title graphics or animation I have created (or if animations are too large I just output back to the disc as per normal playback and the camera creates the file on the disc for me in the CLIP and SUB folders). This way if I want to recreate a project I have all the original clips plus my NLE and supplementary files in one tidy archive. You can even copy the script there too if you want. Anything really.

That's pretty handy. All the tapes and DVD's I have stacked up!

Simon Wyndham · February 9th, 2006, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Mann Z.

edius will edit xdcam natively off the disc and in rt and i know vegas is suppose to have an update as well...

The FAM dragging and dropping off the disc is handled by Sony drivers that come with the camera. The camera acts like another drive. So the ability to drag and drop from the disc onto the timeline is not special feature of the NLE software.

The reality is that you want to copy the files to your hard drive. The access speed of the disc is too slow to be editing directly from it. It can be done. Its just that I wouldn't recommend it. With an XDCAM deck it may be more doable. Transfer speed from disc of the high res DVCAM footage is around 2.5-3 times realtime. With IMX50 it is more like 1.5-2x. Off the camera that is. The decks are nearly twice as fast due to dual pickup lasers.

Robert Mann Z. · February 9th, 2006, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

So the ability to drag and drop from the disc onto the timeline is not special feature of the NLE software..

actually the special part is being able to edit xdcam footage natively on a laptop in a hotel in rt with an nle thats under a $1000...without using any sony softyware...

currently edius stands alone....

February 8th, 2006, 04:08 PM	#62
Scott Aston Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 75	Simon, It is to my understanding that if you just want to shoot and edit with the XDCAM, there is no need for a deck..am I right? __________________ Scott Aston Eyecon Pictures, Inc.

February 8th, 2006, 05:34 PM	#66
Scott Aston Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 75	I'm curious if transferring data out of the NLE to the disk in the camera can be done via firewire. If so, why buy a deck? __________________ Scott Aston Eyecon Pictures, Inc.

February 8th, 2006, 05:50 PM	#68
Scott Aston Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 75	That's good news! So while in FAM I can drag and drop video files to the NLE and drag and drop back to the camera disk. That's nice! I am really looking forward to NAB this year and getting a hands on look at this camera. One thing about the pricing, from the brochure the only real difference I see between the F330 and the F350 is the SDI out and variable framerates. F330 $16,800 MSRP and the F350 at $25,000. That's a big price difference. So I guess the question is how bad do I want the variable framerate? __________________ Scott Aston Eyecon Pictures, Inc.

February 8th, 2006, 06:19 PM	#70
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	It's not how badly you want the variable frame rates, but how bad the >30fps framesrates look. They're half rez. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

February 8th, 2006, 06:30 PM	#72
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	The Sony people said they'd got pretty much everyone lined up to edit it. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

February 8th, 2006, 04:08 PM	#61
Mike Marriage Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NE of London, England Posts: 788	Simon beat me to it! I take it you were at VideoForum? The 350 was hooked up to the LCD when I was playing first thing on Tuesday, but someone must have broken something, because by the afternoon it wasn't and we couldn't get it back up again.

February 8th, 2006, 04:17 PM	#63
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	Mike, were you looking at the 330 (silver) or the 350 (black)? The 350 I was looking at had a really crappy piece of Canon glass on it (not even HD glass!) The 330 had the Canon lens that was designed for it though. I would say it is smaller than the 750, but not by much. The 750 uses an IMX shell like the current SD XDCAM's. the HD XDCAM uses a similar body to the 450. Although I thought it was quite heavy considering. It did actually feel heavier than my 510! The disk can't be read in a Blu-Ray drive no. But for the level of production the 330 and 350 are aimed at, due to the use of disc rather than tape, they can be used as decks quite effectively without worry. Post support is the only real sticking point. Apparently Avid already has support for it in their higher end NLE's (which I suppose kind of defies the point of a low cost HD solution!) There is also one other that I can't mention. As for other companies I don't know. I'm torn. I know for low budget stuff this camera would be fantastic. But the price still seems a bit steep. I was quoted 20k UKP for the camera without lens for the 350. The 330 is cheaper of course, but no variable framerates. £20k almost buys a PDW530! I hope the salesman was misquoting the Dollars figure by mistake. £20k sounds too much. EVen if it cost $25k that is still only around 13k UKP which is more reasonable.

February 8th, 2006, 05:42 PM	#67
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	I didn't see it with the 2/3" adaptor. But honestly I don't think I would be interested because of the loss of field of view (1.37 times the focal length of the lens you are using). I will definitely give the CA very close examination if I manage to test one. Scott, the XDCAM cameras and decks have two ways of transferring via firewire. The first is via standard footage playback as per any other firewire camera. The XDCAM HD can record in a format compatible with current NLE's. But I am not sure if the 35mbps variable datarate can be played through firewire. The second method is called FAM (File Access Mode). When this is enabled the camera acts like another drive on the computer and the video files can be dragged and dropped onto your hard drive much like digital photos from a stills camera. The SD cameras also have an Ethernet option via an optional card, but I am not sure if the new XDCAM HD's can do this.

February 8th, 2006, 06:02 PM	#69
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	You can drag right onto the timeline from the disc yes. But the better method is to copy the files you want to your hard drive first for much faster access. I wouldn't recommend editing from the disc. Generally I use either PDZ1 or double click on the proxy files in the Sub folder on the disc to view them in the MXF viewer to quickly see which files I want. Then I just go to the Clips folder of the disc and copy the equivalent clip numbers in high res form to my editing hard drive. Your final edit will most probably be output to DVD or video of some kind. So no need to copy or create MXF files back to disc usually. When the camera formats an XDCAM disc it reserves 500mb for general storage. So when I finish a project that I want to keep I will copy my NLE file (in my case a Vegas VEG) to this General folder on the disc that contains the original footage. I will also copy any supplementary files such as title graphics or animation I have created (or if animations are too large I just output back to the disc as per normal playback and the camera creates the file on the disc for me in the CLIP and SUB folders). This way if I want to recreate a project I have all the original clips plus my NLE and supplementary files in one tidy archive. You can even copy the script there too if you want. Anything really. I am not sure about the price difference between the 330 and 350. It does seem a lot for HD SDI and variable framerate abilities.

February 8th, 2006, 06:28 PM	#71
Robert Mann Z. Skyonic New York Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 614	edius will edit xdcam natively off the disc and in rt and i know vegas is suppose to have an update as well...