Sony introduces 1/2" HD XDCAM for $20K

Mike Marriage · January 22nd, 2006, 05:39 PM

Well said Simon.

I think I am just going to buy an HD100 now and use it for SD work with my exsisting editing suite. The HD is just a bonus that's ready if I need it. I have been asking clients if they want HD for every job for a few months now and no one is interested. Most still don't know what "widescreen" is. At least they have stopped asking for VHS delivery. I refuse to use VHS anymore.

Joe Carney · January 25th, 2006, 04:41 PM

btw, I was researching the codec spec for the sd version of the xdcam.
It's at mpeg@mainmpl @ 4:2:2(8bit:4:2:2), but the new HD XDCAM is 4:2:0.
So we can't base any assumptions about visual quality on the existing SD versions.
Guess they didn't want anything to cut into the more expensive cinealta line.

Walter Graff · January 25th, 2006, 04:44 PM

Saw the camera yesterday and it is fantastic! Just to make it clear this camera is designed for small Tv stations and independent shooters. It is a step above the prosumer HD cameras (HVX, etc) but a step below a 2/3 inch camera.

Simon Wyndham · January 25th, 2006, 06:14 PM

I've been promised an evaluation model for ages now. I live in hope. I'd like to get it evaluated properly from a qualified broadcast engineer point of view as well as on a project. If/when I do I'll post my results up. Looks cool though, certainly for low budget stuff. I'll be intrigued as to whether some of the new features in the F330 etc cameras with regards to footage logging and organisation will be included in any future firmware upgrades of current SD cameras.

I haven't heard much about live remote logging or memory stick proxy recording despite these features being enabled on current cameras.

Joe Carney · January 26th, 2006, 12:26 PM

I'm wondering if their wireless kits will still work since the throughput is similar to the SD version.

Steve Connor · February 7th, 2006, 05:05 PM

Dealer just quoted me:

PDW-F330L [without lens] approx list price GBP 10,500
PDW-F330K [with lens] approx list price GBP 13,800
Availability March

PDW-F350L [without lens] approx list price GBP 15,900
Availability March.

Doesn't say what lens though!

Douglas Call · February 7th, 2006, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Connor

Dealer just quoted me:
PDW-F330L [without lens] approx list price GBP 10,500
PDW-F330K [with lens] approx list price GBP 13,800
Availability March
Doesn't say what lens though!

It's not a high definition lens that's darn sure. It's either a pro-video most likely or maybe a low level broadcast lens if there is such a thing. The only High Def 1/2" lens i know about is the Fujinon (HSs18x5.5B RD) and that's around $7500. if not more.

Steve Connor · February 8th, 2006, 02:25 AM

Canon also have an 1/2 inch HD lens at that price

Scott Aston · February 8th, 2006, 10:26 AM

10,500 GBP = $18,200 USD

I thought Sony has a $16,800 MSRP on the F330 (Body Only)
Was your quote with a some Anton Bauer batteries or something?

It's to my understanding that the Auto Focus Canon HD lens will selll for $7500 and the Fujinon Manual HD lens for $13,000.

Bill Pryor · February 8th, 2006, 10:33 AM

I got the XDCAM sales DVD from Sony a few weeks ago. It's old and does not have the HD cameras in it, but the XDCAM optical disc part is the same. I had not considered moving toward a tapeless world until I watched the DVD and read the pdf's, etc. The whole XDCAM concept has some excellent advantages. Sony is saying its' testing is proving even better ruggedness than tape, with accelerated testing showing 50 years of storage. They also say temperature extremes have no effect on recording.

The discs are about $30 (U.S.), and in the HD mode I seem to recall that you can get about an hour at 35mbs (maybe it's 50 minutes, I don't remember for sure). That puts the 35mbs recording at about the same price as DVCAM tape. No need to transfer all your footage to another format as you do with pricier solid state recording.

I also like the way you can access scenes instantly. You see thumbnails on the beginning frame of every take on the camera's flipout screen, and you can scroll through them with the cursor, click on one you want to see, and then be ready to shoot again in an instant. That resonates with me because I shoot mostly with a DSR500 and use PD184 tapes a lot. On my last shoot, with clients around, I was always having to rewind way back in the tape so they could check continuity, then FF back to the tail and cue up and double check everything to make sure I wasn't recording over something or leaving a time code break. And the proxy files are cool too for rough cutting and organizing archival stuff.

Somewhere I read they will come out with a 2/3" chip XDCAM HD camera sometime soon. That could mean next year, who knows. I've never thought about going down to a 1/2" chip camera before, but this new one has possibilities.

Graeme Nattress · February 8th, 2006, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

Interesting. Although I wouldn't know these tech specs myself. Maybe Graeme can tell us more if he's reading?

It's a tough question. I think it's about 2.5:1 - Remember the 35mbits is variable though, so that makes it even more complex. The quality I saw looked very good, but...

Graeme

Graeme Nattress · February 8th, 2006, 10:43 AM

The variable frame rate is not quite as cool as you'd think though.

It's limited - in PAL modes, you can't go above 50fps, so if you want 60fps, you need to switch to NTSC modes. At least it's "dual standard".

However, at frame rates above 25fps or 30fps respectively, it records half resolution frames!!!! Yes, it ceases to be properly fully progressive. I guess it just embeds into 1080i. Ouch. So the vari-frame modes give you 540p - oh dear....

Graeme

Steve Connor · February 8th, 2006, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Aston

10,500 GBP = $18,200 USD

I thought Sony has a $16,800 MSRP on the F330 (Body Only)
Was your quote with a some Anton Bauer batteries or something?
.

We get higher prices in over here in the UK, EVERYTHING is more expensive than in the US

Simon Wyndham · February 8th, 2006, 03:52 PM

I had a brief play with the F350 today. I couldn't make any judgement on the picture as it wasn't hooked up to a monitor. They did have a HD demo playing though which looked pretty nice.

The camera itself is definitely not aimed to compete with the current SD 2/3" models. That much is apparent by the setup options which although they have quite a lot of options did seem more limited than the current cameras. For example the gamma modes were more like the old 570 series, and I get the feeling that the FILM mode means crushed blacks etc rather than something like the Panasonic curves.

The variable framerates cannot be adjusted on the fly. They have to be set before a shot, so no speed ramping. And the framerate that the camera records is shown live in the viewfinder which can make things difficult at lower framerates for things like focussing on the fly. By 'live' I mean that you will see the viewfinder updated at 1fps, 2fps or whatever you set it to, and then on playback it is played at 25fps thus getting the overcrank or undercrank effect. It would have been nice if it could have just captured the frames it needed transparently without affecting the frame update in the viewfinder, but I don't know if this would technically be possible(?)

I hope to be evaluating it in much more detail at some point in the near future.

I would comment on the HVX200. But I'll keep those opinions to myself. although I have posted them on other forums. I thought I'd keep Chris's place clean ;)

Mike Marriage · February 8th, 2006, 04:01 PM

I had a play with the 350 at Videoforum yesterday.

Firstly, they are bulkier than I had expected, very similar to a HDW 750.

I thought the image was decent, but not as good as the HDCAM cameras. The best I can describe it is half way between HDV and HDCAM - just like you would expect I guess. There was noticable CA even with a decent Canon HD glass. The Sony rep said it may be from the prism more than the lens.

The camera handles just like any other pro Sony, no suprises. The XDCAM HD system looks good. I like the built in backup aspect, it is a shame the deck's expensive. Could the discs be read in a Blu-Ray drive once they come out? If so it would be very appealling. I can certainly see the camera being very appealing for HD broadcast as long as there is the support for post.

February 8th, 2006, 10:26 AM	#54
Scott Aston Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 75	10,500 GBP = $18,200 USD I thought Sony has a $16,800 MSRP on the F330 (Body Only) Was your quote with a some Anton Bauer batteries or something? It's to my understanding that the Auto Focus Canon HD lens will selll for $7500 and the Fujinon Manual HD lens for $13,000. __________________ Scott Aston Eyecon Pictures, Inc.

February 8th, 2006, 10:43 AM	#57
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	The variable frame rate is not quite as cool as you'd think though. It's limited - in PAL modes, you can't go above 50fps, so if you want 60fps, you need to switch to NTSC modes. At least it's "dual standard". However, at frame rates above 25fps or 30fps respectively, it records half resolution frames!!!! Yes, it ceases to be properly fully progressive. I guess it just embeds into 1080i. Ouch. So the vari-frame modes give you 540p - oh dear.... Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

January 22nd, 2006, 05:39 PM	#46
Mike Marriage Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NE of London, England Posts: 788	Well said Simon. I think I am just going to buy an HD100 now and use it for SD work with my exsisting editing suite. The HD is just a bonus that's ready if I need it. I have been asking clients if they want HD for every job for a few months now and no one is interested. Most still don't know what "widescreen" is. At least they have stopped asking for VHS delivery. I refuse to use VHS anymore.

January 25th, 2006, 04:41 PM	#47
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	btw, I was researching the codec spec for the sd version of the xdcam. It's at mpeg@mainmpl @ 4:2:2(8bit:4:2:2), but the new HD XDCAM is 4:2:0. So we can't base any assumptions about visual quality on the existing SD versions. Guess they didn't want anything to cut into the more expensive cinealta line.

January 25th, 2006, 04:44 PM	#48
Walter Graff Hellgate Pictures, Inc. Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New York, NY Posts: 124	Saw the camera yesterday and it is fantastic! Just to make it clear this camera is designed for small Tv stations and independent shooters. It is a step above the prosumer HD cameras (HVX, etc) but a step below a 2/3 inch camera.

January 25th, 2006, 06:14 PM	#49
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	I've been promised an evaluation model for ages now. I live in hope. I'd like to get it evaluated properly from a qualified broadcast engineer point of view as well as on a project. If/when I do I'll post my results up. Looks cool though, certainly for low budget stuff. I'll be intrigued as to whether some of the new features in the F330 etc cameras with regards to footage logging and organisation will be included in any future firmware upgrades of current SD cameras. I haven't heard much about live remote logging or memory stick proxy recording despite these features being enabled on current cameras.

January 26th, 2006, 12:26 PM	#50
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	I'm wondering if their wireless kits will still work since the throughput is similar to the SD version.

February 7th, 2006, 05:05 PM	#51
Steve Connor Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK Posts: 383	Dealer just quoted me: PDW-F330L [without lens] approx list price GBP 10,500 PDW-F330K [with lens] approx list price GBP 13,800 Availability March PDW-F350L [without lens] approx list price GBP 15,900 Availability March. Doesn't say what lens though!

February 8th, 2006, 02:25 AM	#53
Steve Connor Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK Posts: 383	Canon also have an 1/2 inch HD lens at that price

February 8th, 2006, 10:33 AM	#55
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	I got the XDCAM sales DVD from Sony a few weeks ago. It's old and does not have the HD cameras in it, but the XDCAM optical disc part is the same. I had not considered moving toward a tapeless world until I watched the DVD and read the pdf's, etc. The whole XDCAM concept has some excellent advantages. Sony is saying its' testing is proving even better ruggedness than tape, with accelerated testing showing 50 years of storage. They also say temperature extremes have no effect on recording. The discs are about $30 (U.S.), and in the HD mode I seem to recall that you can get about an hour at 35mbs (maybe it's 50 minutes, I don't remember for sure). That puts the 35mbs recording at about the same price as DVCAM tape. No need to transfer all your footage to another format as you do with pricier solid state recording. I also like the way you can access scenes instantly. You see thumbnails on the beginning frame of every take on the camera's flipout screen, and you can scroll through them with the cursor, click on one you want to see, and then be ready to shoot again in an instant. That resonates with me because I shoot mostly with a DSR500 and use PD184 tapes a lot. On my last shoot, with clients around, I was always having to rewind way back in the tape so they could check continuity, then FF back to the tail and cue up and double check everything to make sure I wasn't recording over something or leaving a time code break. And the proxy files are cool too for rough cutting and organizing archival stuff. Somewhere I read they will come out with a 2/3" chip XDCAM HD camera sometime soon. That could mean next year, who knows. I've never thought about going down to a 1/2" chip camera before, but this new one has possibilities.

February 8th, 2006, 03:52 PM	#59
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	I had a brief play with the F350 today. I couldn't make any judgement on the picture as it wasn't hooked up to a monitor. They did have a HD demo playing though which looked pretty nice. The camera itself is definitely not aimed to compete with the current SD 2/3" models. That much is apparent by the setup options which although they have quite a lot of options did seem more limited than the current cameras. For example the gamma modes were more like the old 570 series, and I get the feeling that the FILM mode means crushed blacks etc rather than something like the Panasonic curves. The variable framerates cannot be adjusted on the fly. They have to be set before a shot, so no speed ramping. And the framerate that the camera records is shown live in the viewfinder which can make things difficult at lower framerates for things like focussing on the fly. By 'live' I mean that you will see the viewfinder updated at 1fps, 2fps or whatever you set it to, and then on playback it is played at 25fps thus getting the overcrank or undercrank effect. It would have been nice if it could have just captured the frames it needed transparently without affecting the frame update in the viewfinder, but I don't know if this would technically be possible(?) I hope to be evaluating it in much more detail at some point in the near future. I would comment on the HVX200. But I'll keep those opinions to myself. although I have posted them on other forums. I thought I'd keep Chris's place clean ;)

February 8th, 2006, 04:01 PM	#60
Mike Marriage Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NE of London, England Posts: 788	I had a play with the 350 at Videoforum yesterday. Firstly, they are bulkier than I had expected, very similar to a HDW 750. I thought the image was decent, but not as good as the HDCAM cameras. The best I can describe it is half way between HDV and HDCAM - just like you would expect I guess. There was noticable CA even with a decent Canon HD glass. The Sony rep said it may be from the prism more than the lens. The camera handles just like any other pro Sony, no suprises. The XDCAM HD system looks good. I like the built in backup aspect, it is a shame the deck's expensive. Could the discs be read in a Blu-Ray drive once they come out? If so it would be very appealling. I can certainly see the camera being very appealing for HD broadcast as long as there is the support for post.