XDCAM HD various topics

Simon Wyndham · April 10th, 2006, 07:00 AM

Just been looking more at the gamma curves for the XDCAM HD cameras. Although I stand by what I said in an earlier thread about obtaining more range from cameras, there does seem to be an exception in this case.

On the PDW-510 and 530 the STD gamma still has a smooth highlight roll-off. The FLM gamma curves make this roll off smoother and the output never reaches 100ire.

The STD gamma on the XDCAM HD however appears to have a very hard clip with hardly any highlight roll-off at all. This would explain why the Texas Shootout found that the highlights clipped so soon. As mentioned before the default knee point on the XDCAM HD is set to 100%.

The CINE gamma curves on the XDCAM HD however have a very smooth highlight roll-off. The shadow tones seem to be lowered somewhat, but the resultant flat picture would appear to gain more latitude. I was told by Sony that the Cine curves on the XDCAM HD are the same as those in the Version 2 software for the HDW-750. This may well be the case.

Thierry Humeau · April 10th, 2006, 10:48 PM

Simon,

I noticed the problem right away after I received a F350 and did the first test shots, but I think it can be addressed easily. They was no color saturation in picture hightlights, just white hallows. I went through the paint menu and noticed that the Knee saturation was set at .... zero. I cranked it to 150 and now, the knee circuitry is working properly and picture highlights stay nicely saturated. I hope our friends at the Texas HD shootout corrected the knee saturation on their test camera otherwise, the results are going to be ugly...

Thierry.

Simon Wyndham · April 11th, 2006, 02:46 AM

Hey Thierry, good to see you here!

I would be careful of knee saturation as it can sometimes be overcooked. Usually I leave it set to default on the 510 because the True Eye processing usually works fine on its own. Did you notice whether the knee sat on the 350 could go into negative figures?

I'll check if it is okay to release the gamma curves of the cameras and put them up on my website.

Joe Carney · April 16th, 2006, 02:16 PM

From the Sony CineAlta site, a pdf reprint of from Film and Video mag...of issues with blue/green screen for ILM and StarWars (article by John Knoll). Done in laymans terms. Interesting issues with 1080p and 4:2:2 video.

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...print_5-05.pdf

Matt Gottshalk · May 2nd, 2006, 09:37 PM

I sent my produucer out to California with my Sony DSR-500, and forgot to give him the camera plate!

The shoot is tomorrow (5/3) morning

So...need a Sony Camera Plate in Orange County, CA...if you have one please call

John @ 703.725.7027

Thanks

Matt G

David Mintzer · May 2nd, 2006, 10:50 PM

Call Promax in Irvine---they might have one they can rent to you.

Chris Hurd · May 2nd, 2006, 10:55 PM

Rex is right. ProMax is your answer.

Open at 8am, directions at http://www.promax.com/CustomerService/Directions.html

Chris Hurd · May 14th, 2006, 08:18 PM

Excellent link, thanks Joe. Especially enjoyed the section "Nine pieces of advice on shooting HD and HDCAM SR." Nice to meet you at NAB by the way,

Joe Carney · May 15th, 2006, 02:48 PM

Thanks, likewise. It's nice to finally have faces with the names.

Jeff Mack · May 16th, 2006, 08:37 AM

Sorry to repost this stupid timecode issue but I think I have uncovered my problem with Vegas.

In capturing my HDCam 1080i tapes into my computer via firewire from the J-H3, the deck recognizes drop vs. non drop. If you all will remember, the 3 cam crew that shot my footage had 2 cams set to drop and 1 cam set to non drop.

I decided to invest another rental charge to recapture my footage. If you also remember, the first time I captured, I used a window burnof the timecode on the video for editing purposes. That's where all of the edl issues came into play. Anyway, I need to recapture so I can remove the window burn.

The deck has a setting on it to select drop vs. non drop. When I put the tape in, there is a clue on the display that auto recognizes which one. I then made the appropriate setting change and then captured. No one will believe this. When I rewound the tapes, some of them were non drop during the tone and bars and then magically changed to drop when shooting the footage. Obviously, I had better things to do during capture so after 2-3 tapes (of 40 total!) I only paid attention to the display at the beginning of the tape and then walked away. I know for a fact that this happened because I saw it on one of the last tapes captured.

My question is this. Does it even matter if the tapes are drop or non drop? Once the stream enters my computer, it is what it is. Frames don't continue to drop during the capture do they? Even if I tell the deck drop or non drop? Is that setting just for output (which the J-H3 can't do anyway?

I was ready to start my edit process all over again but don't weant to invest the time after all if this drop vs non drop issue will affect my edit.

I don't understand how these issues will affect me after the footage is on tape.

Can anyone explain?

Jeff MAck

Daniel Epstein · May 16th, 2006, 09:51 AM

Jeff,
You may be lucky. The switch on the deck may not change anything on the firewire transfer. You definitely should check your transfers on the computer to see if the timecode matches compared to the tapes.
Usually the switches on the decks are for recording incoming signals not for changing the signal from firewire on playback. Of course you can't be sure unless you check. Sony has a support line which you can call them on questions by the way. Sony Posse (800-883-6817)
I don't know what Vegas does to allow you to see info about the clip and whether it makes a new clip when there is a timecode break. My old Media 100 used to warn me if there was a timecode problem on the clip. Not sure what other newer NLE's tell you about this issue.

Mike Morgan · May 17th, 2006, 07:47 AM

I know I asked Simon this already but do any of you have (besides the sony demo footege) footege or could shoot a short clip with the XDCAM 24p filmlook?

I wont be going out to Promax for a few weeks to test the units in person and would love to see footege ahead of time

(footege trying to take advantage the cinealta, filmlike gamma settings.)

Thanks for the help.
-Mike

David Mintzer · May 21st, 2006, 03:41 PM

Anybody have any experience with this camera and its low light performance? Is it comparable to a 1/2" DV Camera or is a bit less light sensitive? Also, anyone of you using the 330 or 350 to deliver nature oriented projects to Discovery or National Geographic----will they accept the format because it is of higher quality then typical HDV?

Simon Wyndham · May 22nd, 2006, 01:44 AM

Low light performance is rated at f9@2000 lux.

Discovery HD has recently decided to accept XDCAM HD as an unrestricted delivery and shooting format (ie you can shoot a whole programme on it) as long as the 35mb/s recording mode is used. I'm not sure if this is in their official guidelines yet, but I had this information direct from one of the top Sony guys over here. This was supposed to have been announced at NAB, but maybe it got lost in the noise?

Simon Wyndham · June 19th, 2006, 07:21 AM

I've just placed a new article about PDZ-1 up on my website at http://www.simonwyndham.co.uk/PDZ1.htm

I'll be expanding on the functions of this underrated piece of software over the next few days. THis may be of limited use to XDCAM HD owners until the NLE makers catchup. But for SD XDCAM users they can use the functions right now, while XDCAM HD owners can get an idea of what they will be able to do soon.

April 10th, 2006, 07:00 AM	#16
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	XDCAM HD highlight clip Just been looking more at the gamma curves for the XDCAM HD cameras. Although I stand by what I said in an earlier thread about obtaining more range from cameras, there does seem to be an exception in this case. On the PDW-510 and 530 the STD gamma still has a smooth highlight roll-off. The FLM gamma curves make this roll off smoother and the output never reaches 100ire. The STD gamma on the XDCAM HD however appears to have a very hard clip with hardly any highlight roll-off at all. This would explain why the Texas Shootout found that the highlights clipped so soon. As mentioned before the default knee point on the XDCAM HD is set to 100%. The CINE gamma curves on the XDCAM HD however have a very smooth highlight roll-off. The shadow tones seem to be lowered somewhat, but the resultant flat picture would appear to gain more latitude. I was told by Sony that the Cine curves on the XDCAM HD are the same as those in the Version 2 software for the HDW-750. This may well be the case.

April 10th, 2006, 10:48 PM	#17
Thierry Humeau Telecam Films Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Washington DC Posts: 723	Simon, I noticed the problem right away after I received a F350 and did the first test shots, but I think it can be addressed easily. They was no color saturation in picture hightlights, just white hallows. I went through the paint menu and noticed that the Knee saturation was set at .... zero. I cranked it to 150 and now, the knee circuitry is working properly and picture highlights stay nicely saturated. I hope our friends at the Texas HD shootout corrected the knee saturation on their test camera otherwise, the results are going to be ugly... Thierry. __________________ Thierry Humeau, DoP Télécam Films www.telecamfilms.com

April 16th, 2006, 02:16 PM	#19
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	Interesting article about green/blue screen issues From the Sony CineAlta site, a pdf reprint of from Film and Video mag...of issues with blue/green screen for ILM and StarWars (article by John Knoll). Done in laymans terms. Interesting issues with 1080p and 4:2:2 video. http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...print_5-05.pdf __________________ Boycott Guinness, bring back the pint!!!

May 2nd, 2006, 09:37 PM	#20
Matt Gottshalk Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Potomac Falls, VA Posts: 215	Emergency help needed in Orange County, CA: Sony Camera Plate! I sent my produucer out to California with my Sony DSR-500, and forgot to give him the camera plate! The shoot is tomorrow (5/3) morning So...need a Sony Camera Plate in Orange County, CA...if you have one please call John @ 703.725.7027 Thanks Matt G

May 2nd, 2006, 10:50 PM	#21
David Mintzer Rextilleon Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pleasantville, NY Posts: 520	Call Promax in Irvine---they might have one they can rent to you. __________________ Red #97

April 11th, 2006, 02:46 AM	#18
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	Hey Thierry, good to see you here! I would be careful of knee saturation as it can sometimes be overcooked. Usually I leave it set to default on the 510 because the True Eye processing usually works fine on its own. Did you notice whether the knee sat on the 350 could go into negative figures? I'll check if it is okay to release the gamma curves of the cameras and put them up on my website.

May 2nd, 2006, 10:55 PM	#22
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Rex is right. ProMax is your answer. Open at 8am, directions at http://www.promax.com/CustomerService/Directions.html __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

May 14th, 2006, 08:18 PM	#23
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Excellent link, thanks Joe. Especially enjoyed the section "Nine pieces of advice on shooting HD and HDCAM SR." Nice to meet you at NAB by the way, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

May 15th, 2006, 02:48 PM	#24
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	Thanks, likewise. It's nice to finally have faces with the names. __________________ Boycott Guinness, bring back the pint!!!

May 16th, 2006, 08:37 AM	#25
Jeff Mack Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 195	J-H3 Deck & Timcode Sorry to repost this stupid timecode issue but I think I have uncovered my problem with Vegas. In capturing my HDCam 1080i tapes into my computer via firewire from the J-H3, the deck recognizes drop vs. non drop. If you all will remember, the 3 cam crew that shot my footage had 2 cams set to drop and 1 cam set to non drop. I decided to invest another rental charge to recapture my footage. If you also remember, the first time I captured, I used a window burnof the timecode on the video for editing purposes. That's where all of the edl issues came into play. Anyway, I need to recapture so I can remove the window burn. The deck has a setting on it to select drop vs. non drop. When I put the tape in, there is a clue on the display that auto recognizes which one. I then made the appropriate setting change and then captured. No one will believe this. When I rewound the tapes, some of them were non drop during the tone and bars and then magically changed to drop when shooting the footage. Obviously, I had better things to do during capture so after 2-3 tapes (of 40 total!) I only paid attention to the display at the beginning of the tape and then walked away. I know for a fact that this happened because I saw it on one of the last tapes captured. My question is this. Does it even matter if the tapes are drop or non drop? Once the stream enters my computer, it is what it is. Frames don't continue to drop during the capture do they? Even if I tell the deck drop or non drop? Is that setting just for output (which the J-H3 can't do anyway? I was ready to start my edit process all over again but don't weant to invest the time after all if this drop vs non drop issue will affect my edit. I don't understand how these issues will affect me after the footage is on tape. Can anyone explain? Jeff MAck

May 16th, 2006, 09:51 AM	#26
Daniel Epstein Trustee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,267	Jeff, You may be lucky. The switch on the deck may not change anything on the firewire transfer. You definitely should check your transfers on the computer to see if the timecode matches compared to the tapes. Usually the switches on the decks are for recording incoming signals not for changing the signal from firewire on playback. Of course you can't be sure unless you check. Sony has a support line which you can call them on questions by the way. Sony Posse (800-883-6817) I don't know what Vegas does to allow you to see info about the clip and whether it makes a new clip when there is a timecode break. My old Media 100 used to warn me if there was a timecode problem on the clip. Not sure what other newer NLE's tell you about this issue.

May 17th, 2006, 07:47 AM	#27
Mike Morgan New Boot Join Date: May 2006 Location: USA Posts: 10	XDCAM filmlook I know I asked Simon this already but do any of you have (besides the sony demo footege) footege or could shoot a short clip with the XDCAM 24p filmlook? I wont be going out to Promax for a few weeks to test the units in person and would love to see footege ahead of time (footege trying to take advantage the cinealta, filmlike gamma settings.) Thanks for the help. -Mike

May 21st, 2006, 03:41 PM	#28
David Mintzer Rextilleon Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pleasantville, NY Posts: 520	Low Light Perfomance Anybody have any experience with this camera and its low light performance? Is it comparable to a 1/2" DV Camera or is a bit less light sensitive? Also, anyone of you using the 330 or 350 to deliver nature oriented projects to Discovery or National Geographic----will they accept the format because it is of higher quality then typical HDV? __________________ Red #97

May 22nd, 2006, 01:44 AM	#29
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	Low light performance is rated at f9@2000 lux. Discovery HD has recently decided to accept XDCAM HD as an unrestricted delivery and shooting format (ie you can shoot a whole programme on it) as long as the 35mb/s recording mode is used. I'm not sure if this is in their official guidelines yet, but I had this information direct from one of the top Sony guys over here. This was supposed to have been announced at NAB, but maybe it got lost in the noise?

June 19th, 2006, 07:21 AM	#30
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	PDZ-1, new article I've just placed a new article about PDZ-1 up on my website at http://www.simonwyndham.co.uk/PDZ1.htm I'll be expanding on the functions of this underrated piece of software over the next few days. THis may be of limited use to XDCAM HD owners until the NLE makers catchup. But for SD XDCAM users they can use the functions right now, while XDCAM HD owners can get an idea of what they will be able to do soon.