PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)

[Alister Chapman]

Everything else is default.

I'm really liking this detail level now. I have a corporate shoot tomorrow and then of to Norway for the Northern Lights at the end of the week so hope to get some good material.

[Paul Cronin]

Great that is how I set it up.

Agree I think this is the best picture I have had from the camera to date. Good luck on your shoot and maybe next year I will come along on the Northern Lights trip too short a time frame this year. Enjoy

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Alister, Paul & Tom,

Since all of you guys are lucky enough to have both the 350 and EX1/3 - just a quick question: how do the last Alister's settings keep up on the EX1, in terms of the best sharpness / natural edges / no noise exaggeration ?

Of course, some settings do not apply - but most should be the same!

What's most interesting to me is a balance between detail level (as a crude means to "sharpen" the image), and those more subtle ones (white/black limits, frequency, crispening and aperture).

[Paul Cronin]

Piotr the 350 exceeds the EX1 in all the areas you asked about. I have tested both cameras side by side and I will only shoot with the EX1 now when I have too. The stock lens on the 350 is OK and I tried a Canon J15x9.5 which was not up to the stock lens. So IMHO you need to buy nice HD glass to make the most of the 350. Canon HJ or Fujinon ZA, HA.

The Picture profiles from one can not be used in the other. I tried this for a test and it was not a good result.

The 350 handles the edge sharpness/natural look much better then the EX1. I say EX1 since I don't have a EX3.

The 350 really is the next step up in EX line and is worth the price.

Sorry have to run client just walked in. Happy to answer detailed questions later.

[Alister Chapman]

As Paul said the settings for the 350 don't cross over to the EX1 as the 350's default "sharpness" is higher than that of the EX. On the 350 I'm looking at a much higher amount of softening from the default than I would use for a similar look on the EX1.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Paul Cronin

The Picture profiles from one can not be used in the other. I tried this for a test and it was not a good result.

Thanks Paul & Alister - that's what I wanted to know.

Originally Posted by Paul Cronin

The 350 handles the edge sharpness/natural look much better then the EX1. I say EX1 since I don't have a EX3.

I'm sure it does, Paul. Unfortunately, it's beyond my means at this time...

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

As Paul said the settings for the 350 don't cross over to the EX1 as the 350's default "sharpness" is higher than that of the EX. On the 350 I'm looking at a much higher amount of softening from the default than I would use for a similar look on the EX1.

That said, I'd just like to make sure (don't have access to a 350, so cannot check myself):

- the difference between your 350 scene settings and those for the EX1/3 cameras are only quantitative, not qualitative, am I right?

In other words, are the mechanism of the picture sharpness/noise related settings the same in both camera types? I'd say they are (detail, frequency, white/black limits, crispening); not sure about aperture - but please confirm.

Thanks,

Piotr

[Alister Chapman]

Both the EX and PMW detail systems do the same thing, adding a white or black outline to outlines and edges. The amount of correction is different between the two cameras.

Aperture is an additional adjustment not available on the EX1/EX3.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Thanks Alister.

Regarding the ongoing strive for keeping as much detail as possible without exaggeration of the outlines and noise, I've already had several surges of energy for experimenting with these settings on my EX1, but frankly, I ended up with just two - quite different yet simple - looks to be chosen from, depending on the destination of my video.

When I'm after that filmic, dreamy look I usually dial the detail setting down to some -15, and crush blacks. This looks best with 180 Deg shutter; sometimes no shutter at all. OF course, this is accompanied by very specific color/gamma choice(s), but that's another subject.

When I'm after the opposite - i.e. the most "realistic" look - I must admit I like it sharp, so I use faster shutters, and crank detail up into default territories, or even up to +10 (but no more than this - above +15, the picture looks almost "embossed"). I have been trying to fight the "echo" around edges with detail set high like this using the black/white limits, frequency and crispening settings, but with varying success. I'd appreciate it very much if some of you guys (Alister, Paul or Tom) share your EX1 experience in this regard.

[Tom Roper]

Piotr,

You will probably get 3 different answers on this, but for a highly detailed look from the EX1, I prefer:

Detail Level: +1 (or soften to taste)
Frequency: +65
White Limit: +75
Black Limit: +75

all the others at default.

That setting has worked well for me with std gamma 3, Black -4, and the knee point and slope adjusted for the scene, and also for both 60i and 24p shooting modes.

The PMW350, just like the EX1 will clip the colors (think of bare tree branches against a bright sky, like some of the pictures you posted in the past), if you don't manage the knee point and slope properly with the standard gammas.

Compared to the EX1, the PMW350 needs the detail level dialed back to -10 to -15. I think the PMW350 benefits from having the Frequency set lower as well, +55. Although the default level of sharpening in the PMW350 is higher than the EX1, the PMW350 better avoids the heavy black and white outlines drawn around high contrast edges than the EX1. That said, they can still be effectively mitigated on the EX1 with the above black/white limits and frequency settings.

What I observed on the PMW350, is if the Aperture setting is too high, (at least in some combinations with the other settings), specular highlights get exagerrated and blown out, think of glinting pinpoint sources of light from waves on the water, or reflections. I prefer the Aperture -20. That's why in the end, I don't prefer Aperture alone to be the primary detail enhancement mechanism. It can work alone within some limits, but only on certain parts of the picture, and can be overdone. It's why I think the Detail-On circuit is still preferred, to achieve overall balance.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

Piotr,

You will probably get 3 different answers on this, but for a highly detailed look from the EX1, I prefer:

Detail Level: +1 (or soften to taste)
Frequency: +65
White Limit: +75
Black Limit: +75

all the others at default.

That setting has worked well for me with std gamma 3, Black -4, and the knee point and slope adjusted for the scene, and also for both 60i and 24p shooting modes.

Dear Tom : bingo!

The above are almost identical to what I considered my best my own settings for that punchy, detailed look -except that for even more punchiness (when I feel in the mood for it), I use Cine1 (or even Std1 with carefully adjusted, manual knee). And, I use 25p exclusively (I don't do fast action, though).

Good to know that quite independently, we've both come to similar results...

[Alister Chapman]

Just be aware that the details circuits on the EX1/EX3 generate additional aliasing when the detail level is above -8. This has a serious impact on SD downconverts and highly detailed textures.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Yes Alister - I'm aware of that. In my experience with Vegas Pro, with detail on at 0-10, any aliasing that results from downrezzing to SD can be eliminated successfully by applying just a tiny bit of Gaussian blur before, and just a tad of sharpening - after the downconversion.

I agree though that high detail settings may need mitigating on a scene-to-scene basis (very fine textures, etc.). But, it's nowehere as bad as with the V1E in 25p mode!

As to the aperture setting which enhances fine details on the 350, and is not present on the EX1/EX3: the latter have another setting with "aperture" in its name, the KNEE APERTURE. While DETAIL emphasizes the entire luminance range of the signal, KNEE APERTURE emphasizes signals only in the highlight areas that were compressed by the KNEE function.

My very specific question is:

- is this setting active with both std and cine gammas? It's always accessible in PP menu, but frankly, I couldn't notice any difference even with big changes to its value, when any cine gamma is active. With standard gammas, where you can define manual knee, with some slope/knee combinations the influence of knee aperture on the compressed highlights' content can be very significant!

[Alister Chapman]

Knee aperture only works with the standard gammas and not with Cinegammas.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

Knee aperture only works with the standard gammas and not with Cinegammas.

So I thought - but then, it should be disabled in the Detail settings when a Cinegamma is on (just like most of the Knee options are)...