Sony PMW350 vs the Sony F800 need advice

Simon Denny · December 15th, 2009, 05:37 AM

Hey Doug,
I checked out the Vimeo footage, this looks great and the footage is so clean. With that lens where does the f stop like to be set to? I know this is loaded question but my lens on my F350 when shooting outdoors in the Aussie sun sits @ filter 3 @ f5 to f11 which I hate but going to filter 4 just kills any extra light that I need.

Thanks

Doug Jensen · December 15th, 2009, 05:52 AM

Hey Theirry, you know I love your stuff no matter what lens you choose. "Monster Fish of the Congo" for NatGeo had some fantastic footage and I'm looking forward to your Afghanistan project.

I just personally hate the look of a WA lens. Nothing, except shooting interlaced, kills the "film look" more than a super wide lens with a lot of barrell distortion. I won't shoot with anything under 6mm and my 7.6mm lens is perfert.

Doug Jensen · December 15th, 2009, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Ash

Hey Doug,
I checked out the Vimeo footage, this looks great and the footage is so clean. With that lens where does the f stop like to be set to? I know this is loaded question but my lens on my F350 when shooting outdoors in the Aussie sun sits @ filter 3 @ f5 to f11 which I hate but going to filter 4 just kills any extra light that I need.
Thanks

Simon, thanks for the compliemnt. The F800 looks good at a much wider f-stop range than my F350, EX1, and EX3. With those 1/2" cameras I would NEVER shoot smaller than f/5.6, and I use f/4 - f/2.8 as my target zone.

With the F800 I still use f/4 as my target f-stop, but I have no qualms about using the full range when necessary. I have to admit it has been great to get back to a 2/3" camera after shooting 100% 1/2" since March of 2006.

Simon Denny · December 15th, 2009, 01:35 PM

Thanks Doug,
I'm always trying to get my f stop around f4 but sometimes I have to much light here in Aus and I'm forced to use filter 4 which seems to under expose for some reason.
Just a thought do you shoot with the shutter on, on the 800?

Thanks

Anton Strauss · December 15th, 2009, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Ash

Thanks Doug,
I'm always trying to get my f stop around f4 but sometimes I have to much light here in Aus and I'm forced to use filter 4 which seems to under expose for some reason.
Just a thought do you shoot with the shutter on, on the 800?

Thanks

I have set my gain to -3db and that helps with filter3 and the australian sun

Greg Boston · December 15th, 2009, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

I won't shoot with anything under 6mm and my 7.6mm lens is perfert.

Note to self: Trim all nose hairs before stepping in front of Jensen's HD camera lens.

On a more serious note, I like long lenses too, but I ometimes find myself wanting just a little bit wider lens for handheld stuff. But I'm with you on the barrel distortion. Not a look that I like to see. And without the benefit of ALAC, the CA on long HD lenses does tend to rear its ugly head.

-gb-

Simon Wyndham · December 15th, 2009, 06:05 PM

I'll get a new camera when I know that it will make me money. Steadicams and lighting will do far more for you than a big camera. My back says to get new lighting. My brain tells me a Steadicam, as long as I take extra care over skeletal structure while using it. My woman says that my lower regions say to get a new camera.

That's the choice hierarchy. Don't choose or speak with your dick is what I'm sayin'.

Anton Strauss · December 15th, 2009, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

That's the choice hierarchy. Don't choose or speak with your dick is what I'm sayin'.

but that's where 75% of the brain is located:)

Simon Denny · December 16th, 2009, 01:03 AM

Ah yes, -3db, I always forget to switch this back when I go to shooting outdoors again. It's one of those things you mentally tell yourself as your shooting indoors to change when you get back outside.

Thanks

Alister Chapman · December 16th, 2009, 01:43 AM

Hmmmm.... -3db to deal with too much light. Not sure about that as while it does reduce the cameras sensitivity by about a stop it also reduces the dynamic range by a similar amount reducing the ability to handle highlights.

A better answer is to get some extra ND filters.

Paul Cronin · December 16th, 2009, 05:18 AM

Agree with Alister on this. When I shoot full backlit which some producers ask for at times I keep -3db. If the cameras ND won't put me in the 5.6 sweet spot I add a ND filter on the lens. You might have to buy a few ND filters to have the different range you need. B+W filters have given me the best results so far.

Alister Chapman · December 16th, 2009, 05:30 AM

The PMW-350 is even worse in this respect as it is more sensitive than the 700/F800 by another stop!

How times have changed, now we are complaining that the cameras are too sensitive!

I think the real answer would be to put slightly darker ND's in positions 3 and 4 of the wheel. It's easy enough when your on a controlled shoot to screw on an additional ND or drop another in the matte box but for run and gun such as news you really just want to be able to swing in a darker ND on the filter wheel.

Paul Cronin · December 16th, 2009, 05:34 AM

Darker 3 and 4 on the filters would be very nice option. Too sensitive not complaining here.

Doug Jensen · December 16th, 2009, 06:02 AM

I have always advocated shooting at -3db most the time with the EX1, EX3, and PDW-3xx cameras. The purpose is not to adust the exposure in bright light (in fact that's the worst time to use it!). The purpose of -3db is to reduce noise in the blacks and shadows. Sure, you give up some dynamic range, but the trade off is worth it to shoot cleaner video.

The F800 is the first camera I've owned in 20 years that I'm not advocating shooting with negative gain. The camera is clean enough without it, so it would not be a woth the trade off to give up dynamic range just to shoot at -3db or -6db.

As for exposure in bright conditions, I find the built-in ND filters are adequate. Of course, with that said, I must admit that if I'm shooting outdoors there's a 99% chance I've got a polarizer and/or a .6 1/2 grad filter in place for aesthetic reasons. Any help they give with exposure is just a bonus. With those two filters in place on the lens, it is very rare that I can even use Filter 4 on the wheel.

Thierry Humeau · December 16th, 2009, 07:21 AM

In regard to the F800, it may be time for Sony to reconsider the cheesy star filter and swap it for an additional level of ND instead.

T.

December 15th, 2009, 05:52 AM	#17
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,453	Hey Theirry, you know I love your stuff no matter what lens you choose. "Monster Fish of the Congo" for NatGeo had some fantastic footage and I'm looking forward to your Afghanistan project. I just personally hate the look of a WA lens. Nothing, except shooting interlaced, kills the "film look" more than a super wide lens with a lot of barrell distortion. I won't shoot with anything under 6mm and my 7.6mm lens is perfert. __________________ Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/ Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools Last edited by Doug Jensen; December 15th, 2009 at 06:01 AM. Reason: To fix my horrible spelling!

December 16th, 2009, 01:43 AM	#25
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	Hmmmm.... -3db to deal with too much light. Not sure about that as while it does reduce the cameras sensitivity by about a stop it also reduces the dynamic range by a similar amount reducing the ability to handle highlights. A better answer is to get some extra ND filters. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

December 16th, 2009, 05:18 AM	#26
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Agree with Alister on this. When I shoot full backlit which some producers ask for at times I keep -3db. If the cameras ND won't put me in the 5.6 sweet spot I add a ND filter on the lens. You might have to buy a few ND filters to have the different range you need. B+W filters have given me the best results so far. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

December 16th, 2009, 05:30 AM	#27
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	The PMW-350 is even worse in this respect as it is more sensitive than the 700/F800 by another stop! How times have changed, now we are complaining that the cameras are too sensitive! I think the real answer would be to put slightly darker ND's in positions 3 and 4 of the wheel. It's easy enough when your on a controlled shoot to screw on an additional ND or drop another in the matte box but for run and gun such as news you really just want to be able to swing in a darker ND on the filter wheel. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

December 16th, 2009, 05:34 AM	#28
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Darker 3 and 4 on the filters would be very nice option. Too sensitive not complaining here. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

December 15th, 2009, 05:37 AM	#16
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	Hey Doug, I checked out the Vimeo footage, this looks great and the footage is so clean. With that lens where does the f stop like to be set to? I know this is loaded question but my lens on my F350 when shooting outdoors in the Aussie sun sits @ filter 3 @ f5 to f11 which I hate but going to filter 4 just kills any extra light that I need. Thanks

December 15th, 2009, 01:35 PM	#19
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	Thanks Doug, I'm always trying to get my f stop around f4 but sometimes I have to much light here in Aus and I'm forced to use filter 4 which seems to under expose for some reason. Just a thought do you shoot with the shutter on, on the 800? Thanks

December 15th, 2009, 06:05 PM	#22
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	I'll get a new camera when I know that it will make me money. Steadicams and lighting will do far more for you than a big camera. My back says to get new lighting. My brain tells me a Steadicam, as long as I take extra care over skeletal structure while using it. My woman says that my lower regions say to get a new camera. That's the choice hierarchy. Don't choose or speak with your dick is what I'm sayin'.

December 16th, 2009, 01:03 AM	#24
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	Ah yes, -3db, I always forget to switch this back when I go to shooting outdoors again. It's one of those things you mentally tell yourself as your shooting indoors to change when you get back outside. Thanks

December 16th, 2009, 06:02 AM	#29
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,453	I have always advocated shooting at -3db most the time with the EX1, EX3, and PDW-3xx cameras. The purpose is not to adust the exposure in bright light (in fact that's the worst time to use it!). The purpose of -3db is to reduce noise in the blacks and shadows. Sure, you give up some dynamic range, but the trade off is worth it to shoot cleaner video. The F800 is the first camera I've owned in 20 years that I'm not advocating shooting with negative gain. The camera is clean enough without it, so it would not be a woth the trade off to give up dynamic range just to shoot at -3db or -6db. As for exposure in bright conditions, I find the built-in ND filters are adequate. Of course, with that said, I must admit that if I'm shooting outdoors there's a 99% chance I've got a polarizer and/or a .6 1/2 grad filter in place for aesthetic reasons. Any help they give with exposure is just a bonus. With those two filters in place on the lens, it is very rare that I can even use Filter 4 on the wheel. __________________ Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/ Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools

December 16th, 2009, 07:21 AM	#30
Thierry Humeau Telecam Films Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Washington DC Posts: 723	In regard to the F800, it may be time for Sony to reconsider the cheesy star filter and swap it for an additional level of ND instead. T. __________________ Thierry Humeau, DoP Télécam Films www.telecamfilms.com Last edited by Thierry Humeau; December 16th, 2009 at 09:10 AM.