Fuji XS17 and F350

Paul Gale · March 28th, 2008, 02:23 PM

I've now shot quite a number of projects on my F350 and Fuji XS17 lens.

Overall, I'm actually quite disappointed with the wholelook of the images - blacks seem a little washed out but maybe that's just the settings I've been using (various cinegamma settings and standard modes). More of issue is the amount of CA I get with the lens - quite noticeable on high contrast areas and quite a lot towards the edges of the picture.

What I don't know is if this is normal/expected or whether I have a dud - maybe the way I'm operating it is causing more of a problem.

What do you think - I'm still preferring the look of my old 570 although the XDCAM workflow is much better. Maybe I should look at the F700 when it's out and spend a lot more on the lens?

I guess the other issue is that I may not really be seeing the best from my images as I generally only preview the footage on a Dell 2405 monitor. Maybe I should be looking at it more often on my 50" plasma?

Maybe I was expecting too much - starting to become a bit disillusioned with the camera/lens :(

Paul.

Ivan Snoeckx · March 28th, 2008, 03:18 PM

Hi Paul,

I never used Fujinon lenses so I can't comment on them, but I believe that lens is a lower end model.

Why don't you try to sell your lens and get a better one for your PDW-F350, instead of buying a PDW-700 with a viewfinder that is optional and a expensive 2/3" HD lens? If you can afford and justify it, OK then go for it, but it's going to cost you a lot of money.

Maybe you can first rent a Canon KH21ex5.7 IRSE, KH10ex3.6 IRSE, KH16ex5.7 IRSE or Fujinon equivalents and look what that gives.

Those XDCAM HD420 cameras are very good machines, and I doubt that in normal situations the much higher priced PDW-700 is going to look better then your F350.

Stewart Menelaws · March 29th, 2008, 09:32 AM

Hi Paul - We have been using the same lens on the F350 for various projects, and while I have noticed the "odd" CA in given situations, I would not say it is causing any real issues. However most of our work is controlled lighting conditions both in and outside. Recently we were working on a shoot that had a white van driving into the scene and we had to completely reverse the shooting angle because the contrast was just a disaster, but I have dealt with the same issues on 5"X4" sheet film on a stills camera with high quality glass and there is nothing for it, but to either change your shooting angles or erect large screens and flags.

Regarding the look of the captured footage (general settings aside), I agree it is a little uninspired but I suppose it depends on what you are looking for (there were some settings posted around here that appear to have changed the lives of some sports f350 users - better contrast control) - I try to get as much detail onto the disc (video is so unforgiving if lighting, and the relationship of light reflecting of a given surface is not kept an eye on) and then do all the grading in FCP - as a stills photographer I have been doing this for years so I suppose it seems the natural way to do things. I also filter the lens for certain projects - Enhancers, Polarisers, Graduates, Softeners and Black Pro Mist

We have been thinking of testing the more expensive Fujinon wide angle lens, costs about £10,000 or so - to see if there is much of a difference compared to the XS17 - course if someone has already done that it would be good to hear from them.

I agree with Ivan, the 330/350 are very good machines, and as you say the workflow is just fantastic. You didn't mention the type of work you do, perhaps a change of angle, aperture setting, flare control - how are you monitoring what you are filming? - if non of these help then perhaps you may indeed have a lens problem - can you post a screen grab?

We are also waiting to see what the F700 can do - but I would not consider it a replacement for the F350 for general work, more of a compliment to an integrated system where the 700 would take on the areas you would need it. The F350 can still be used on smaller dolly / crane set ups which we find indispensable on tighter budget projects. The weight and possible power requirements of the F700 would push production costs up, and we certainly could only use this on higher budget productions. So depending on your client needs/budgets I would be careful about ditching your 350.

Phil and Simon will be giving us more details on the 700 shortly so that will be interesting reading.

Regards: Stu
www.studioscotland.com

Greg Boston · March 29th, 2008, 10:01 AM

Having battled the CA monster even with my higher grade lens, I took to researching as much as I could about CA and lens design. Turns out, the higher the resolving capabilities of the lens, the more CA becomes an issue. Especially true of zoom lenses. If you want some pristine images, throw the 2/3 adapter on the camera and put a cine lens on it. Much simpler design with a fixed focal length lens eliminates most of the CA issues.

-gb-

Alister Chapman · March 30th, 2008, 01:32 PM

I have yet to find an HD zoom that doesn't exhibit some CA. Even the top flight 2/3" HD Canons exhibit noticeable CA.

Paul Gale · March 31st, 2008, 03:54 AM

Thanks Guys - sorry I missed your replies, I don't seem to be getting any email notification currently.

I'll see if I can grab some examples of the CA I'm seeing and post them to eliminate a duff lens possibility...

Cheers,

Paul.

Hornady Setiawan · April 1st, 2008, 09:16 PM

i have a set of Fuji HD Super Cine.
Those too not CA-proof. Altho much better and clearer images.
I will do some test shots today and post u guys the results...

Hornady Setiawan · April 2nd, 2008, 07:35 AM

Here are comparison of 3 Fujinon lenses:
- HS18x5.5
- A17x7.6
- Super Cine E Prime

these are quicktime still image in PNG codec, so it's lossless.

i did this as fast as i could so focal length is rough approximation only.

shot using settings:
HQ 25P
Cine4
gain -3dB
F about 5.6-8
ND filter 3
Temperature 6012K / C balance 12
White Clip 109.5
everything else = ALL Preset

Hornady Setiawan · April 2nd, 2008, 07:39 AM

Alex Leith · April 2nd, 2008, 02:11 PM

Without paying for Rapidshare membership we can only download one of those images per day! Anywhere else you could host them?

Greg Boston · April 2nd, 2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Leith

Without paying for Rapidshare membership we can only download one of those images per day!

That wasn't true for me. I downloaded them one at a time after waiting the .5 minute and typing in a captcha code.

Granted, I'm not a fan of Rapidshere either. There are too many other services out there that don't ask for premium paid membership for easy access to downloads.

-gb-

Alex Leith · April 2nd, 2008, 03:37 PM

Weird... I downloaded the first one... and then when I tried the next it told me I had reached my download limit for the day.

[Edit] - Oops... It actually said "1 minute" not "1 day"... duh! With powers of observation like that perhaps I shouldn't be in charge of a camera... ;-D

Hornady Setiawan · April 3rd, 2008, 10:07 AM

These are Super Cine E Primes
http://rapidshare.com/files/10451647...e_8mm.mov.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/10451647..._16mm.mov.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/10451647..._34mm.mov.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/10451647..._54mm.mov.html

U can compare the fringing or CA ...

Tim Allison · April 3rd, 2008, 11:37 AM

Hate to sound like a newbie here, but what the heck is CA?

Alex Leith · April 3rd, 2008, 11:51 AM

Chromatic abberation.... a side-effect of the fact that different wavelengths (colors) of light resolve at different points (because they bend different amounts) when they pass through a lens. It results in a red-blue or magenta-green fringe most visible on high-contrast edges, especially at the edges of the image.

Zoom lenses suffer more than primes as zoom lenses pass the light through more lens elements.

March 28th, 2008, 02:23 PM	#1
Paul Gale Major Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Oxfordshire, UK Posts: 425	Fuji XS17 and F350 - lots of CA :( I've now shot quite a number of projects on my F350 and Fuji XS17 lens. Overall, I'm actually quite disappointed with the wholelook of the images - blacks seem a little washed out but maybe that's just the settings I've been using (various cinegamma settings and standard modes). More of issue is the amount of CA I get with the lens - quite noticeable on high contrast areas and quite a lot towards the edges of the picture. What I don't know is if this is normal/expected or whether I have a dud - maybe the way I'm operating it is causing more of a problem. What do you think - I'm still preferring the look of my old 570 although the XDCAM workflow is much better. Maybe I should look at the F700 when it's out and spend a lot more on the lens? I guess the other issue is that I may not really be seeing the best from my images as I generally only preview the footage on a Dell 2405 monitor. Maybe I should be looking at it more often on my 50" plasma? Maybe I was expecting too much - starting to become a bit disillusioned with the camera/lens :( Paul.

March 30th, 2008, 01:32 PM	#5
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	I have yet to find an HD zoom that doesn't exhibit some CA. Even the top flight 2/3" HD Canons exhibit noticeable CA. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

April 2nd, 2008, 07:39 AM	#9
Hornady Setiawan Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 103	having trouble uploading to dvinfo, so i upload here: these are HS18x5.5 http://rapidshare.com/files/10425711...5_8mm.mov.html http://rapidshare.com/files/10425711..._16mm.mov.html http://rapidshare.com/files/10425711..._34mm.mov.html http://rapidshare.com/files/10425711..._54mm.mov.html And these are A17x7.6 http://rapidshare.com/files/10446820...6_8mm.mov.html http://rapidshare.com/files/10446820..._16mm.mov.html http://rapidshare.com/files/10446820..._34mm.mov.html http://rapidshare.com/files/10446820..._54mm.mov.html will post the SuperCine E Prime later this afternoon... Last edited by Hornady Setiawan; April 3rd, 2008 at 04:46 AM.

April 2nd, 2008, 02:11 PM	#10
Alex Leith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Northampton, England Posts: 500	Without paying for Rapidshare membership we can only download one of those images per day! Anywhere else you could host them? __________________ Alex

April 2nd, 2008, 03:37 PM	#12
Alex Leith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Northampton, England Posts: 500	Weird... I downloaded the first one... and then when I tried the next it told me I had reached my download limit for the day. [Edit] - Oops... It actually said "1 minute" not "1 day"... duh! With powers of observation like that perhaps I shouldn't be in charge of a camera... ;-D __________________ Alex

March 28th, 2008, 03:18 PM	#2
Ivan Snoeckx Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Belgium \| Europe Posts: 441	Hi Paul, I never used Fujinon lenses so I can't comment on them, but I believe that lens is a lower end model. Why don't you try to sell your lens and get a better one for your PDW-F350, instead of buying a PDW-700 with a viewfinder that is optional and a expensive 2/3" HD lens? If you can afford and justify it, OK then go for it, but it's going to cost you a lot of money. Maybe you can first rent a Canon KH21ex5.7 IRSE, KH10ex3.6 IRSE, KH16ex5.7 IRSE or Fujinon equivalents and look what that gives. Those XDCAM HD420 cameras are very good machines, and I doubt that in normal situations the much higher priced PDW-700 is going to look better then your F350.

March 29th, 2008, 09:32 AM	#3
Stewart Menelaws Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Scotland (UK) Posts: 219	Hi Paul - We have been using the same lens on the F350 for various projects, and while I have noticed the "odd" CA in given situations, I would not say it is causing any real issues. However most of our work is controlled lighting conditions both in and outside. Recently we were working on a shoot that had a white van driving into the scene and we had to completely reverse the shooting angle because the contrast was just a disaster, but I have dealt with the same issues on 5"X4" sheet film on a stills camera with high quality glass and there is nothing for it, but to either change your shooting angles or erect large screens and flags. Regarding the look of the captured footage (general settings aside), I agree it is a little uninspired but I suppose it depends on what you are looking for (there were some settings posted around here that appear to have changed the lives of some sports f350 users - better contrast control) - I try to get as much detail onto the disc (video is so unforgiving if lighting, and the relationship of light reflecting of a given surface is not kept an eye on) and then do all the grading in FCP - as a stills photographer I have been doing this for years so I suppose it seems the natural way to do things. I also filter the lens for certain projects - Enhancers, Polarisers, Graduates, Softeners and Black Pro Mist We have been thinking of testing the more expensive Fujinon wide angle lens, costs about £10,000 or so - to see if there is much of a difference compared to the XS17 - course if someone has already done that it would be good to hear from them. I agree with Ivan, the 330/350 are very good machines, and as you say the workflow is just fantastic. You didn't mention the type of work you do, perhaps a change of angle, aperture setting, flare control - how are you monitoring what you are filming? - if non of these help then perhaps you may indeed have a lens problem - can you post a screen grab? We are also waiting to see what the F700 can do - but I would not consider it a replacement for the F350 for general work, more of a compliment to an integrated system where the 700 would take on the areas you would need it. The F350 can still be used on smaller dolly / crane set ups which we find indispensable on tighter budget projects. The weight and possible power requirements of the F700 would push production costs up, and we certainly could only use this on higher budget productions. So depending on your client needs/budgets I would be careful about ditching your 350. Phil and Simon will be giving us more details on the 700 shortly so that will be interesting reading. Regards: Stu www.studioscotland.com

March 29th, 2008, 10:01 AM	#4
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	Having battled the CA monster even with my higher grade lens, I took to researching as much as I could about CA and lens design. Turns out, the higher the resolving capabilities of the lens, the more CA becomes an issue. Especially true of zoom lenses. If you want some pristine images, throw the 2/3 adapter on the camera and put a cine lens on it. Much simpler design with a fixed focal length lens eliminates most of the CA issues. -gb-

March 31st, 2008, 03:54 AM	#6
Paul Gale Major Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Oxfordshire, UK Posts: 425	Thanks Guys - sorry I missed your replies, I don't seem to be getting any email notification currently. I'll see if I can grab some examples of the CA I'm seeing and post them to eliminate a duff lens possibility... Cheers, Paul.

April 1st, 2008, 09:16 PM	#7
Hornady Setiawan Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 103	i have a set of Fuji HD Super Cine. Those too not CA-proof. Altho much better and clearer images. I will do some test shots today and post u guys the results...

April 2nd, 2008, 07:35 AM	#8
Hornady Setiawan Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 103	Here are comparison of 3 Fujinon lenses: - HS18x5.5 - A17x7.6 - Super Cine E Prime these are quicktime still image in PNG codec, so it's lossless. i did this as fast as i could so focal length is rough approximation only. shot using settings: HQ 25P Cine4 gain -3dB F about 5.6-8 ND filter 3 Temperature 6012K / C balance 12 White Clip 109.5 everything else = ALL Preset

April 3rd, 2008, 10:07 AM	#13
Hornady Setiawan Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 103	These are Super Cine E Primes http://rapidshare.com/files/10451647...e_8mm.mov.html http://rapidshare.com/files/10451647..._16mm.mov.html http://rapidshare.com/files/10451647..._34mm.mov.html http://rapidshare.com/files/10451647..._54mm.mov.html U can compare the fringing or CA ...

April 3rd, 2008, 11:37 AM	#14
Tim Allison Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Starkville, MS Posts: 96	Hate to sound like a newbie here, but what the heck is CA?

April 3rd, 2008, 11:51 AM	#15
Alex Leith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Northampton, England Posts: 500	Chromatic abberation.... a side-effect of the fact that different wavelengths (colors) of light resolve at different points (because they bend different amounts) when they pass through a lens. It results in a red-blue or magenta-green fringe most visible on high-contrast edges, especially at the edges of the image. Zoom lenses suffer more than primes as zoom lenses pass the light through more lens elements. __________________ Alex