A7s or GH4 - which for you?

[Peter Rush]

Is this suspiciously cheap at £1339.50? It states full UK warranty but the low price suggests to me Hong Kong

Panamoz Sony ILCE-7s Alpha 7s A7s Full Frame CMOS Digital Camera (Body Only)

Pete

[Daniel Latimer]

I have the GH4 and I love it. It's obviously not as awesome in lowlight as the A7S, but I have nothing but good things to say about the GH4. 4k is so fun to work with. I shot the video below this weekend. (Just a sneak peek so that's why there's no audio from the event. That will come later.)

At the 0:49 second mark the next sequence is all using one shot. Being able to crop is great.

Boston Wedding at the Colonnade Hotel on Vimeo

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Peter Rush

Now I'm confused as this report states that all A7s regardless of region are crippled to 29 minute recording

Yeah, but it can shoot high iso, that is all you will ever need, right. :) Seriously, I don't understand why it is not possible to just up the prizes a bit for all dslr's and give unlimited recording for all camera's, or at least give you the choice and offer locked and unlocked versions at different prizes. I have been trying to shoot a ceremony recently using 2 dslr's and a handicam and I"m not doing that again, it requires some careful planning and luck and I don't like to rely on luck.

[Ade Towell]

Peter - that's where i got mine from - it's legit, have bought other items from them also with no hassle. It comes from Hong Kong but they have folk in the Uk who communicate with you - they offer 2 year warranty, not sure how that works as have not had a problem with anything yet but if you don't mind imported goods then its fine. Is also a world camera, shoots PAL & ntsc formats

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Daniel Latimer

At the 0:49 second mark the next sequence is all using one shot. Being able to crop is great.

That single sequence says it all, I watched the vdeo first before reading your comment and had no idea that was done in post.

[Peter Rush]

Originally Posted by Ade Towell

Peter - that's where i got mine from - it's legit, have bought other items from them also with no hassle. It comes from Hong Kong but they have folk in the Uk who communicate with you - they offer 2 year warranty, not sure how that works as have not had a problem with anything yet but if you don't mind imported goods then its fine. Is also a world camera, shoots PAL & ntsc formats

Ade can I ask how much import duties were - plus did you have to pay the Royal Mail handling charge?

I'm wary of imported goods as I'm having issues with a Samyang lens (returned for repair under warranty) that has gone missing between Heathrow and Hong Kong and I'm getting no joy from Onestopdigital - they just keep fobbing me off with 'waiting to hear from Hong Kong mail - it's been 2 months now!

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Ade Towell

Peter - that's where i got mine from - it's legit, have bought other items from them also with no hassle

My experience with those kind of companies is that their prizes on their website are always excluding taxes, so if you get a invoice there is no tax to deduct for your company. Buying from them would only be a advantage when their offered price would be significantly lower then what you would pay at a reputable store excl tax.or ofcourse if you don't have a company you are basically buying taxfree.

One thing that comes to mind though is service if your camera would malfunction, do they have a physical store where you could bring in the camera? I prefer to buy at a local store so I can drive by with the camera and they take care of the rest if there is a problem.

Edit: just see their prices include vat, then you have got a good deal :) Wonder how they manage to sell so cheap then? They are 700 euro below marketprice and just above the price of a gh4, thats' a lot and does sound to good to be true.

Edit 2: this is what I found back on their website:

"10. Will I have to pay any import taxes and duties, such as VAT?

You will not have to pay any. Our prices are all inclusive. All import and customs charges will be covered by us fully, and will be billed to our shipping account directly. You will not be billed."

Just as I expected, on the salespage it says vat included and their faq says there is no vat...so the mentioned price is exl vat but they won't bill it, that's not legal but no-one seems to mind :)

[Ade Towell]

I paid no duties - Panamoz say they will refund you the money if you do get stung but this is my 3rd transaction with them, all for decent amounts and not had to pay anything over the price you quoted. Not sure how they get round it but hey, I'm not complaining

[Edward Calabig]

The highlight roll off on the GH4 is awful and the image looks overly sharpened, even after turning down the sharpness in the profile settings. I can't put my finger on it but something about the GH4 image put me off even after trying to grade it (where it falls apart horribly imo). The image of the GH4 is so lackluster that its only advantage over current cameras is the 4K which will be horribly overshadowed in future cameras in my opinion.

The A7s makes a great B cam but does not work well as a main camera. It has a VERY good image that is very flexible for being only 8 bit but it's a very fiddly camera with awful ergonomics. Also the rolling shutter and battery life are terrible.

Skin tones on both cameras are poor but correctable in post.

If you're not invested in either and don't have a need for stills, pick up a used C100 and save yourself the headache of having to buy ND filters and lenses.

[Andrew Maclaurin]

This is an interesting thread. Many interesting opinions and experiences. Each to their own.
The ability to crop with 4k looks great. In reality I'm shooting with a C100 in 1080p but giving my clients SD dvds or 720p masters. Nobody asks for more here. I offer Blurays but only have one client who wants them and he's an architect, is a bit crazy and loves tech. Anyway, I have a reasonable crop to play with but more is sometimes more!
I have a C100 and it's been great after using a PD170, 7D and 700D, which were all great as well. The only things I miss from smaller cams is the weight ( C100 is quite a bit heavier than any dslr but on par with the PD170) and the cost.
Everyone has their criteria when buying a camera, mine was great low light, long recording times, ND filters ( I live in a very sunny city, Madrid), peaking ( my eyes are getting old), xlrs, etc
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to replace my b-cam, a 700D, with either of these fine cameras, but i think it's best to pick a brand and stick with it as lenses are very costly.
I was seriously thinking about a Sony fs100, vg30 and nex5n combo. All are great cams but none as great as my A cam, the C100.
Pick what suits you, enjoy it and make money ( or art)! It's great to have so many quality choices!

[Craig McKenna]

Originally Posted by Edward Calabig

The highlight roll off on the GH4 is awful and the image looks overly sharpened, even after turning down the sharpness in the profile settings. I can't put my finger on it but something about the GH4 image put me off even after trying to grade it (where it falls apart horribly imo). The image of the GH4 is so lackluster that its only advantage over current cameras is the 4K which will be horribly overshadowed in future cameras in my opinion.

The A7s makes a great B cam but does not work well as a main camera. It has a VERY good image that is very flexible for being only 8 bit but it's a very fiddly camera with awful ergonomics. Also the rolling shutter and battery life are terrible.

Skin tones on both cameras are poor but correctable in post.

If you're not invested in either and don't have a need for stills, pick up a used C100 and save yourself the headache of having to buy ND filters and lenses.

Edward, I have no doubt that you know your stuff (and have benefited from your advice in the past - thank you!). I have read similar opinions regarding skin tones on the GH4 camera... but to say that the image falls apart horribly when grading is surely an overstatement? When perusing videos shot with the GH4, I don't sit there and pick at the skin tones (although they're likely fixed in post) or explain how the image has fallen apart with said grading. In fact, a great number of videographers are saying that the GH4 is great using the Cinelike D setting, although exposures are harder to match, which is why zebras come in handy - I don't deny that skin tones are lacking though when compared to a Black Magic Camera.

How will its 4K feature become horribly overshadowed? By the time said cameras come out, the GH5 will be in the market place. At this present moment in time, at a price point of £1300, surely it is safe to call it a great camera? It shoots 8bit 4:2:0 (Edited) at 100mbps (not that I'm certain what 4:2:2 means! Ha!), which had everyone raving upon its release. Also, you can shoot 10 bit with the adaptor if the user is crazy about getting the most out of the image in post.

For a £1300 camera, I think the GH4 is a landmark camera. I think people forget the cost and comparing it to a Sony A7S constantly becomes slightly idiotic when you place the prices alongside each other (HK imports excluded). They are two completely different beasts. As Noa has said repeatedly, the A7S requires almost 3 times the cost of the GH4 to record 4K. Add in the A7s' shortcomings, as stated in your post (battery and ergonomic downfalls), and it looks like much less of a camera when compared with the C100 - which is more closely linked to the price of the A7S plus 4K recorder. Never mind comparing it to the GH4... which is a much cheaper camera than the A7S, yet shows its strengths by bringing genuine legitimacy and argument when compared with a camera almost twice its RRP (A7S).

For those of us invested in M4/3 glass, the GH4 is a God send.

I'd be interested in shooting with a Black Magic Camera, if it wasn't for their willingness to push forward more devices, rather than refining what is already out.

For weddings? Surely the GH4 is surplus to requirements?

I would of course love to be invested in Canon glass and have the ability to shoot with a C100!!! But I don't have that luxury. A part of me is thankful for this however, as I believe Panasonic are going to continue to strive to do everything that they can to make the GH series the best video camera at its price point. As long as they continue to do this, then I will continue to invest in M4/3 glass and benefit from the smaller form factor and excellent battery life with features like peaking and zebras!

Not knocking your post though - the C100 has surely provided you with stunning IQ, files and features that some of us can only dream about! I just think that some people are expecting too much of the GH4... it's only just outside the range of a prosumer camcorder... when compared to one another, it's insane to consider the prosumer camcorder when considering the benefits of the GH4.

[Edward Calabig]

Ah yeah I totally understand. I guess I was approaching the situation as someone who was not vested in any system and they were purchasing to cover any and all situations.

Again I don't think the GH4 or A7s cover most of the situations during weddings. Then again the C100 does not: it is larger and does not have slow motion.

When it boils down to the GH4 vs A7s it all depends on the shooter and their needs. Do you favor a razor sharp 4k image in an ergonomic camera or a filmic 1080p look with terrible ergonomics? I favor the look the A7s over the GH4 much more aside from the crop-ability but it can be so clunky to work with.

[Nigel Barker]

Originally Posted by Peter Rush

Is this suspiciously cheap at £1339.50? It states full UK warranty but the low price suggests to me Hong Kong

Panamoz Sony ILCE-7s Alpha 7s A7s Full Frame CMOS Digital Camera (Body Only)

Pete

It will be shipped from Hong Kong. Panamoz smuggle cameras in & evade customs duty & VAT by under declaring the value on the packages. The recipient is responsible for payment of customs duty & VAT whatever the sender may have labelled the package as.

[Nigel Barker]

Originally Posted by Ade Towell

I paid no duties - Panamoz say they will refund you the money if you do get stung but this is my 3rd transaction with them, all for decent amounts and not had to pay anything over the price you quoted. Not sure how they get round it but hey, I'm not complaining

Panamoz smuggle the cameras. You enter into a criminal conspiracy to evade customs duty & VAT when you order from Panamoz. You do a disservice to local retailers who cannot compete with crooks. There is also the moral aspect as you are effectively stealing from us law abiding citizens who do pay correct taxes that are used to pay for schools & hospitals etc.

[Peter Rush]

It brings us back to the age old question - 'why do we pay more in the UK than the rest of the world for our electronic goods?'

Even Vince cable said the government should do more to stop 'rip off Britain'

From the news today - The great gadget price rip-off: How Britons are still paying hundreds of pounds more for the same products as American customers | Mail Online

I enquired with Panamoz who informed me that they are responsible for import charges which are billed directly to their shipping account - If this is the case In what way does this differ from 'grey imports' which seem to be more acceptable?