Working with HLG footage

Tom Roper · May 22nd, 2018, 07:56 PM

Great news Paul! Thanks for posting the clip, looks excellent.

Paul Anderegg · May 22nd, 2018, 09:06 PM

THANK YOU TOM...looks like you posted the "secret sauce" that makes it possible to work in Sony HLG...at least in Resolve. Seems FCPX is totally incapable of properly dealing with HLG at this time. Not surprising there, they are always way behind.

Paul

Paul Anderegg · September 14th, 2018, 01:22 AM

Using a Sony PXW-Z90, I set PP1 as SDR REC709 manual knee, and PP2 as HDR HLG/709 auto knee (auto knee required for HLG). I then turned gain to max 33db, started pointing at things that would blow out and clip the highlights, and toggled between PP1 and PP2. I laid the clip on a standard SDR REC709 timeline, and exported without any grading or color space changes, as it was set to 709 instead of BT2020 under HLG color space selector. As you can see, the HLG1 (Sony 87%) PP just sees things that the REC709 doesn't. Exposure was locked down, so no exposure changes were happening when I toggled the PP's, you are seeing the HLG gamma doing some sort of magic...W.O.W.

Simon Denny · December 9th, 2019, 10:53 PM

Hi Paul,
I know this is an old thread however, did you find any advantage using HLG on Z90 vs Cine 4 or Cine 2 for your style of work.

I've just started shooting HLG3 on my Sony A7III with excellent results and I also use my Z90 in Cine 4 with Doughs profile, I know these are completely different cameras, so was wondering about your results with the Z90.
Cheers mate

Paul Anderegg · December 9th, 2019, 11:14 PM

Not playing around with HLG any longer. The black level on the Z90 in HLG ios too high, and I am not motivated to figure out how to set it properly. I did slightly play around with creating an HLG calibration for my Sony HDR TV with a meter, but the lack of real time HDR/HLG output without spending $500 makes it a real PITA to do even simple grading right.

Anything that I shoot in HLG to output as REC709 always looks pretty bad, specifically because the black levels are all wrong, too high, looks bad. The monitor on my Macbook has such a high black level and bad contrast it's not really possible to grade blacks or shadows on it.

Paul

Simon Denny · December 10th, 2019, 01:06 AM

Thanks for that info mate, this is what I also found however I needed a second opinion.

Doug Jensen · December 10th, 2019, 11:12 AM

HLG is designed to be used ONLY for "live" output and broadcasting with 10-bit cameras. It is not intended for processing in post and it is not intended for 8-bit video.

Cary Knoop · December 10th, 2019, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

HLG is designed to be used ONLY for "live" output and broadcasting with 10-bit cameras. It is not intended for processing in post.....

That's just sheer nonsense.

Doug Jensen · December 10th, 2019, 11:43 AM

It's right in Sony's own documentation. Look it up.

Simon Denny · December 10th, 2019, 12:08 PM

I have to say that using shooting HLG on my Sony A7III and delivering this as rec709 via FCPX has resulted in the best looking footage I've got outa that camera to date with the least amount of post grading work.

Cary Knoop · December 10th, 2019, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

It's right in Sony's own documentation. Look it up.

Well if Sony says it it must be true........

I have worked on countless HLG videos in post.
I must not know what I am doing! :)

Doug Jensen · December 10th, 2019, 03:36 PM

S-LOG = best for a post processing workflow.

HLG = for live broadcasting and monitoring in a 10-bit environment.

Simple as that.
Just because you can pound a nail with a screwdriver doesn't mean that the hammer wouldn't have been the better choice.

Simon Denny · December 10th, 2019, 03:56 PM

On my Z90 the HLG results are not great however for the A73 the results are excellent.

My work flow
Shoot HLG3 BT2020 PP10 on the Sony A73

FCPX
Rec 709 project
Import footage
Color Space Overide Rec.2020 per clip
Results look great, colours look natural.

I might have this incorrect however as I said, great results

Doug Jensen · December 10th, 2019, 04:19 PM

I'm not familiar with the A73, does it have an S-LOG mode for comparison to the HLG mode that you say you like?

Simon Denny · December 10th, 2019, 04:38 PM

Yep, the A73 has Log profiles which I have found to more of a hassle, I normally use Cine 2 or Cine 4, however lately HLG3 has been my goto profile.

I wish there was more info on HLG and FCPX workflow as there's two two distinctive Color Space Override settings: Rec. 709 & Rec 2020
They both look great with Rec. 709 being less saturated

May 22nd, 2018, 07:56 PM	#91
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Re: Working with HLG footage Great news Paul! Thanks for posting the clip, looks excellent.

May 22nd, 2018, 09:06 PM	#92
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Working with HLG footage THANK YOU TOM...looks like you posted the "secret sauce" that makes it possible to work in Sony HLG...at least in Resolve. Seems FCPX is totally incapable of properly dealing with HLG at this time. Not surprising there, they are always way behind. Paul

September 14th, 2018, 01:22 AM	#93
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Working with HLG footage Using a Sony PXW-Z90, I set PP1 as SDR REC709 manual knee, and PP2 as HDR HLG/709 auto knee (auto knee required for HLG). I then turned gain to max 33db, started pointing at things that would blow out and clip the highlights, and toggled between PP1 and PP2. I laid the clip on a standard SDR REC709 timeline, and exported without any grading or color space changes, as it was set to 709 instead of BT2020 under HLG color space selector. As you can see, the HLG1 (Sony 87%) PP just sees things that the REC709 doesn't. Exposure was locked down, so no exposure changes were happening when I toggled the PP's, you are seeing the HLG gamma doing some sort of magic...W.O.W. YouTube (Short URL)

December 9th, 2019, 10:53 PM	#94
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	Re: Working with HLG footage Hi Paul, I know this is an old thread however, did you find any advantage using HLG on Z90 vs Cine 4 or Cine 2 for your style of work. I've just started shooting HLG3 on my Sony A7III with excellent results and I also use my Z90 in Cine 4 with Doughs profile, I know these are completely different cameras, so was wondering about your results with the Z90. Cheers mate

December 9th, 2019, 11:14 PM	#95
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Working with HLG footage Not playing around with HLG any longer. The black level on the Z90 in HLG ios too high, and I am not motivated to figure out how to set it properly. I did slightly play around with creating an HLG calibration for my Sony HDR TV with a meter, but the lack of real time HDR/HLG output without spending $500 makes it a real PITA to do even simple grading right. Anything that I shoot in HLG to output as REC709 always looks pretty bad, specifically because the black levels are all wrong, too high, looks bad. The monitor on my Macbook has such a high black level and bad contrast it's not really possible to grade blacks or shadows on it. Paul

December 10th, 2019, 01:06 AM	#96
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	Re: Working with HLG footage Thanks for that info mate, this is what I also found however I needed a second opinion.

December 10th, 2019, 11:12 AM	#97
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,450	Re: Working with HLG footage HLG is designed to be used ONLY for "live" output and broadcasting with 10-bit cameras. It is not intended for processing in post and it is not intended for 8-bit video. __________________ Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/ Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools

December 10th, 2019, 11:43 AM	#99
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,450	Re: Working with HLG footage It's right in Sony's own documentation. Look it up. __________________ Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/ Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools

December 10th, 2019, 12:08 PM	#100
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	Re: Working with HLG footage I have to say that using shooting HLG on my Sony A7III and delivering this as rec709 via FCPX has resulted in the best looking footage I've got outa that camera to date with the least amount of post grading work.

December 10th, 2019, 03:36 PM	#102
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,450	Re: Working with HLG footage S-LOG = best for a post processing workflow. HLG = for live broadcasting and monitoring in a 10-bit environment. Simple as that. Just because you can pound a nail with a screwdriver doesn't mean that the hammer wouldn't have been the better choice. __________________ Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/ Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools

December 10th, 2019, 03:56 PM	#103
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	Re: Working with HLG footage On my Z90 the HLG results are not great however for the A73 the results are excellent. My work flow Shoot HLG3 BT2020 PP10 on the Sony A73 FCPX Rec 709 project Import footage Color Space Overide Rec.2020 per clip Results look great, colours look natural. I might have this incorrect however as I said, great results

December 10th, 2019, 04:19 PM	#104
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,450	Re: Working with HLG footage I'm not familiar with the A73, does it have an S-LOG mode for comparison to the HLG mode that you say you like? __________________ Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/ Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools

December 10th, 2019, 04:38 PM	#105
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	Re: Working with HLG footage Yep, the A73 has Log profiles which I have found to more of a hassle, I normally use Cine 2 or Cine 4, however lately HLG3 has been my goto profile. I wish there was more info on HLG and FCPX workflow as there's two two distinctive Color Space Override settings: Rec. 709 & Rec 2020 They both look great with Rec. 709 being less saturated