Working with HLG footage

Mark Rosenzweig · March 21st, 2018, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Anderegg

How about some Da Vinci Resolve 14 tests? You asked for it, well, not really, but here are the results.

Utter failure. Used the YouTube HDR guide, which BTW states that YouTube accepts HLG...set all the HLG settings and project as specified by YouTube. Exported out as 10 bit HEVC in Resolve, then uploaded to YouTube. FAIL...no HDR flag. The 7 second HEVC export took 11 minutes.

For those not aware, you can shoot S-log on the Z90 and render it on a PQ timeline to make HDR. Since any HDR content you must create at this time seems to REQUIRE PQ, it would seem to make much much more sense to just shoot S-log instead of this hybrid REC709 gamma with some HDR log highlights, since HLG is not really looking usable at this point.

Anyone care to test Premier Pro? I would download the trial version of it but at this time I have too much of a headache to continue tonight.

https://youtu.be/2boMcUWgugM

I am sorry, but I posted in this thread *for your benefit* how to make an HLG video in Resolve that YouTube will recognize, but you chose to ignore the instructions, despite my also posting video examples that work based on the workflow. What exactly are you trying to prove? That if one doesn't know what one is doing you get bad results? Resolve will easily produce an HLG YouTube compliant video. Why not try following the instructions I provided and stop wasting your time and that of others who are plowing through your failed experiments. I like your video example.

Paul Anderegg · March 21st, 2018, 09:59 PM

Mark, the posted YouTube link was following YouTubes posted instructions. I made an additional video clip earlier with "luminance mapping" checked off, but it also failed the HDR test for YouTube. Here is the clip following your instructions, save for rendering in HEVC, as upload several hours ago. I will render another in your specified format just to triple check...a success would assume Resolve can only pass through HLG metadata for HDR when exporting in it's own custom codec?

Paul Anderegg · March 21st, 2018, 10:23 PM

Mark, below is the DNxHR HQX HLG HDR QT AARP DEA HIPPA upload, and it indeed does throw the HDR flag on YouTube. I will run the file through Handbrake to see if a less than 800Mbps (100MB/s!!!!!!) file size is possible with your HLG export workflow. :-D

*also throws flag on Resolve to ProRes export, not sure why straight 10 bit HEVC out of Resolve doesn't.

Paul Anderegg · March 25th, 2018, 06:27 PM

Shot some daylight test footage. The clip below was shot in HLG1 with BT.2020 color in 4K. Converted it to PQ HEVC and upload to YouTube as with the previous clips. Used FCPX. Results are uninspiring to me visually...looks pretty dull and flat. Anything I upload to YouTube in HLG spec comes out with a weird magenta shadow tint, viewing on the only HLG capable viewer I have, so I don't do that anymore.

I shot a second series of the same shots in 1080p HLG/REC709, which was pretty pointless, as REC709 is incompatible with PQ HDR10 in any settings I am able to see. Not really sure why they include REC709 as an option with HLG...I am unable to even render out a usable simple SDR REC709 with those clips. Seems that the "HLG" S log portion begins at 70IRE, and anything above that when I try to convert to REC709 just hard clips...so imagine a 70IRE white/color clip.

:(

Cary Knoop · March 25th, 2018, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Anderegg

The clip below was shot in HLG1 with BT.2020 color in 4K. Converted it to PQ HEVC and upload to YouTube as with the previous clips. Used FCPX. Results are uninspiring to me visually...looks pretty dull and flat. Anything I upload to YouTube in HLG spec comes out with a weird magenta shadow tint, viewing on the only HLG capable viewer I have, so I don't do that anymore.

The uninspiring shot is in my opinion due to the lack of contrast and the high black levels (especially the wide shot on the parking lot).
I think the white balance in the last tire short shows very blue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Anderegg

I shot a second series of the same shots in 1080p HLG/REC709, which was pretty pointless, as REC709 is incompatible with PQ HDR10 in any settings I am able to see.

Rec.709 is fine, you just have to convert the Rec.709 gamut to the Rec.2020 gamut.

Paul Anderegg · March 25th, 2018, 09:09 PM

I have searched for a while for how to convert color spaces, but run into things like BBC white papers and such that talk about the science and such, and nothing that gives FCPX settings or other such usable information. Do you have any handy links that could assist? If converting color space involves any "grading", then "I'm out". I am still not able to figure out how to export an SDR REC709 file out of my REC709 HLG camera files...that is pretty sad in itself :-\

The HDR to SDR REC709 HDR Tool effect in FCPX seems to be tailored for converting PQ into SDR 709, not HLG. Resolve is worlds ahead of FCPX in HLG compatibility. Cannot understand why FCPX cannot export HDR Metadata in HLG...as indicated by it's little exclamation mark popup warnings when attempting to do so.

Paul

Cary Knoop · March 25th, 2018, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Anderegg

Resolve is worlds ahead of FCPX in HLG compatibility.

True, but they got to keep on moving.

NAB 2018 may show some new HDR goodies in Resolve, the update cycle has been quiet for awhile ;)

Paul Anderegg · March 25th, 2018, 11:20 PM

FCPX always seems to be 6-12+ months behind in anything useful. HLG in FCPX is more of an afterthought, meant to just check an HLG box. The new free Resolve 14 does a lot the old 12 didn't do, like export in 4K. So many color management options to play with, perhaps one will match my needed settings. I believe HLG conversion to HDR10 (normal PQ HDR) should be considered pretty mandatory for these programs. The camera companies are putting HLG in new consumer grade gear, so true "Instant GDR" that is other than plugging your HDMI cable into your brand new 2017+ HLG TV would be helpful.

Paul

Paul Anderegg · April 4th, 2018, 05:32 AM

Shot another HLG clip, but this time in HDR friendly 10 bit 4:2:2 HLG, using 720p60. I specifically shot this to try to highlight intense light at a dark scene...so I picked a lot of angles with lights shining into the lens. First clip is raw HLG upload, the second clip is HLG to PQ (HDR10) conversion. I still have an issue with using these clips for normal SDR REC709, as I can get levels looking correct, but their is an overwhelming amount of grain and noise across the entire image. This wasn't an important story, so SDR to air quality wasn't a big concern.

Paul

HLG

HDR10

Paul Anderegg · April 5th, 2018, 09:31 AM

Another HLG to HDR10 Z90 file, this time in 1080p60. Picture profile was out of the box HLG/BT2020, no color corrections or other alterations to the factory picture profile. No grading performed, just dropped onto timeline and converted to PQ HDR10.

I also
figured out how to process HLG/BT2020 into SDR/REC709 in FCPX. Project set as REC709. Color space override set to BT2020. Export out and you get the normally saturated REC709 version. I guess the color space override conforms the clip within the project color space, which in my case was a REC709 project.

Paul Anderegg · April 5th, 2018, 08:22 PM

https://pro.sony/en_GB/products/prof...t-hdr-workflow

Sony's in depth step by step guide to working with HLG. Ignore the fact that the text spouts "without needing grading" and every example is specified as being heavily graded.

Paul Anderegg · April 6th, 2018, 09:33 PM

Another...I could almost use the HLG mode full time, if not for the fact that it kind of requires grading to bring down the blacks and mids slightly for SDR, to not look like a greyed out mess in the shadows. It also may handle highlights better...clipping is the same, but seems like it is able to see more in the area that would normally be assigned knee response, is in HLG assigned a log function. On the below clip, if you are seeing it in SDR on YouTube, the police lights that are flooding the back of the car...typically, in normal REC709, I would be expecting those to be a washed out overexposed white area...but they hold a lot of detail in the HLG conversion.

Paul Anderegg · April 9th, 2018, 05:19 PM

Another one. Noticing, even in 720p, HLG originated footage, used in HDR or REC709 renders, looks excessively noisy, especially in the shadows...like at least a 6db drop in s/n ratio.

Paul Anderegg · April 12th, 2018, 02:44 PM

Another 4K one.

Paul

Paul Anderegg · April 14th, 2018, 02:11 PM

Here is a pretty colorful daytime HDR file I just shot for fun. :)

The 10bit 4:2:2 codec really can STRETCH...even with the REC709 EVF assist, it was hard to determine exposure of the bright sky...everything I shot looked blown out, but I could gain it up a long way still before seeing zebras. Back in FCPX, I found I could pull the gamma down A LOT and still looked good, blue gained a lot of color.

Paul

March 21st, 2018, 09:59 PM	#47
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Working with HLG footage Mark, the posted YouTube link was following YouTubes posted instructions. I made an additional video clip earlier with "luminance mapping" checked off, but it also failed the HDR test for YouTube. Here is the clip following your instructions, save for rendering in HEVC, as upload several hours ago. I will render another in your specified format just to triple check...a success would assume Resolve can only pass through HLG metadata for HDR when exporting in it's own custom codec? YouTube (Short URL)

March 21st, 2018, 10:23 PM	#48
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Working with HLG footage Mark, below is the DNxHR HQX HLG HDR QT AARP DEA HIPPA upload, and it indeed does throw the HDR flag on YouTube. I will run the file through Handbrake to see if a less than 800Mbps (100MB/s!!!!!!) file size is possible with your HLG export workflow. :-D also throws flag on Resolve to ProRes export, not sure why straight 10 bit HEVC out of Resolve doesn't. YouTube (Short URL) Last edited by Paul Anderegg; March 21st, 2018 at 11:08 PM.*

March 25th, 2018, 06:27 PM	#49
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Working with HLG footage Shot some daylight test footage. The clip below was shot in HLG1 with BT.2020 color in 4K. Converted it to PQ HEVC and upload to YouTube as with the previous clips. Used FCPX. Results are uninspiring to me visually...looks pretty dull and flat. Anything I upload to YouTube in HLG spec comes out with a weird magenta shadow tint, viewing on the only HLG capable viewer I have, so I don't do that anymore. I shot a second series of the same shots in 1080p HLG/REC709, which was pretty pointless, as REC709 is incompatible with PQ HDR10 in any settings I am able to see. Not really sure why they include REC709 as an option with HLG...I am unable to even render out a usable simple SDR REC709 with those clips. Seems that the "HLG" S log portion begins at 70IRE, and anything above that when I try to convert to REC709 just hard clips...so imagine a 70IRE white/color clip. :( YouTube (Short URL)

March 25th, 2018, 09:09 PM	#51
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Working with HLG footage I have searched for a while for how to convert color spaces, but run into things like BBC white papers and such that talk about the science and such, and nothing that gives FCPX settings or other such usable information. Do you have any handy links that could assist? If converting color space involves any "grading", then "I'm out". I am still not able to figure out how to export an SDR REC709 file out of my REC709 HLG camera files...that is pretty sad in itself :-\ The HDR to SDR REC709 HDR Tool effect in FCPX seems to be tailored for converting PQ into SDR 709, not HLG. Resolve is worlds ahead of FCPX in HLG compatibility. Cannot understand why FCPX cannot export HDR Metadata in HLG...as indicated by it's little exclamation mark popup warnings when attempting to do so. Paul

March 25th, 2018, 11:20 PM	#53
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Working with HLG footage FCPX always seems to be 6-12+ months behind in anything useful. HLG in FCPX is more of an afterthought, meant to just check an HLG box. The new free Resolve 14 does a lot the old 12 didn't do, like export in 4K. So many color management options to play with, perhaps one will match my needed settings. I believe HLG conversion to HDR10 (normal PQ HDR) should be considered pretty mandatory for these programs. The camera companies are putting HLG in new consumer grade gear, so true "Instant GDR" that is other than plugging your HDMI cable into your brand new 2017+ HLG TV would be helpful. Paul

April 4th, 2018, 05:32 AM	#54
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Working with HLG footage Shot another HLG clip, but this time in HDR friendly 10 bit 4:2:2 HLG, using 720p60. I specifically shot this to try to highlight intense light at a dark scene...so I picked a lot of angles with lights shining into the lens. First clip is raw HLG upload, the second clip is HLG to PQ (HDR10) conversion. I still have an issue with using these clips for normal SDR REC709, as I can get levels looking correct, but their is an overwhelming amount of grain and noise across the entire image. This wasn't an important story, so SDR to air quality wasn't a big concern. Paul HLG YouTube (Short URL) HDR10 YouTube (Short URL) Last edited by Paul Anderegg; April 4th, 2018 at 09:02 AM.

April 5th, 2018, 09:31 AM	#55
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Working with HLG footage Another HLG to HDR10 Z90 file, this time in 1080p60. Picture profile was out of the box HLG/BT2020, no color corrections or other alterations to the factory picture profile. No grading performed, just dropped onto timeline and converted to PQ HDR10. I also figured out how to process HLG/BT2020 into SDR/REC709 in FCPX. Project set as REC709. Color space override set to BT2020. Export out and you get the normally saturated REC709 version. I guess the color space override conforms the clip within the project color space, which in my case was a REC709 project. YouTube (Short URL)

April 5th, 2018, 08:22 PM	#56
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Working with HLG footage https://pro.sony/en_GB/products/prof...t-hdr-workflow Sony's in depth step by step guide to working with HLG. Ignore the fact that the text spouts "without needing grading" and every example is specified as being heavily graded.

April 6th, 2018, 09:33 PM	#57
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Working with HLG footage Another...I could almost use the HLG mode full time, if not for the fact that it kind of requires grading to bring down the blacks and mids slightly for SDR, to not look like a greyed out mess in the shadows. It also may handle highlights better...clipping is the same, but seems like it is able to see more in the area that would normally be assigned knee response, is in HLG assigned a log function. On the below clip, if you are seeing it in SDR on YouTube, the police lights that are flooding the back of the car...typically, in normal REC709, I would be expecting those to be a washed out overexposed white area...but they hold a lot of detail in the HLG conversion. YouTube (Short URL)

April 9th, 2018, 05:19 PM	#58
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Working with HLG footage Another one. Noticing, even in 720p, HLG originated footage, used in HDR or REC709 renders, looks excessively noisy, especially in the shadows...like at least a 6db drop in s/n ratio. YouTube (Short URL)

April 12th, 2018, 02:44 PM	#59
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Working with HLG footage Another 4K one. YouTube (Short URL) Paul

April 14th, 2018, 02:11 PM	#60
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Working with HLG footage Here is a pretty colorful daytime HDR file I just shot for fun. :) The 10bit 4:2:2 codec really can STRETCH...even with the REC709 EVF assist, it was hard to determine exposure of the bright sky...everything I shot looked blown out, but I could gain it up a long way still before seeing zebras. Back in FCPX, I found I could pull the gamma down A LOT and still looked good, blue gained a lot of color. Paul YouTube (Short URL)