Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700

[Doug Jensen]

Talk is cheap, where's the footage? Let's see it. And it would also like to see his S-LOG2 (graded) and a good custom Picture Profile split-screened on the same shots to illustrate how great S-LOG2 is on the Z90. Let's see it. People talk about how great S-LOG is in the Z90, but I've not seen any evidence of it.

[Cliff Totten]

I dont think I have read anybody say that SLOG-2 is great or wonderful or spectacular or amazing or anything of the sort. I have also not seen anybody ever say that the Z90's SLog-2 competes with "TRUE" 14 stop cameras like FS700, FS5, FS7 or F5.

Doug,...you are the only one I have EVER read that stated it has an astounding "14stops" of dynamic range. I have read nobody on planet Earth that has ever said this,...but you.

If what you stated WAS true, than it WOULD be an amazing, wonderful and spectacular SLog-2 performer without question. The reason why it does not perform as well as these Sony cine cameras is because it only has around 10-11 stops.

Bottom line: I think the ONLY point that anybody has ever made about SLog-2 on the Z90 is that it gives you the most dynamic range that the Z90 sensor can muster. In other words,..the most this little guy can output.

That's it. It's that simple. It does not go anywhere beyond this. The Z90 / NX80's SLog-2 is GOOD but it's not "great"....it's just recording the "most" DR it's got. That's all. It's important to keep our expectations of this 1inch-type sensor "realistic" and not try to think it has fantasy DR performance!

You are the only one that has ever suggested anything contrary to this idea....

I say this politely and with all due respect,

CT

[Doug Jensen]

Alister (as quoted by Craig Seeman): "I am happy with the results having graded it in Resolve".

[Cliff Totten]

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

Alister (as quoted by Craig Seeman): "I am happy with the results having graded it in Resolve".

Sony usually has Alister represent the company all over the world. They clearly trust and respect his techical understanding of how image sensors work and how logarithmic gamma compression works. They use Alister to TEACH this stuff on their behalf. He will probably be giving Sony technical presentations about 50 ft away from you at NAB next month. Im sure he would allow you to ask him questions and to challange him on this in between his Sony lectures. There are also plenty of other Sony people there for you to argue with too.

You can certainly challenge everybody's happiness with Slog-2 on the Z90 all you want.

CT

[Doug Jensen]

I am not a Sony shill, and I don't care to argue with anybody about S-LOG. Just show me the footage. Simple as that.

[Craig Seeman]

Simon Wyndham does S-Log for RedShark News

https://www.redsharknews.com/product...nother-classic

For most of my testing I used S-Log3, and some S-Log2 gamma settings. These were matched with the S-Log3.cine colourspace in the case of S-Log3, and the S-log2 5500k colourspace for S-Log2.
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In my test footage below you will notice noise in the lowlights. But this should be taken in context of the user. I played very safe with the exposure, despite knowing that with S-Log3 it is usually best to err on over exposure without clipping to minimise this. This is just a case of using the camera for much longer and testing extensively how much you can get away with.
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For my test footage I tried to leave the footage as close to out of the camera as I could. An S-Log3 to LC709 Type A LUT was applied, and in some cases some minor exposure adjustment made where I wasn’t demonstrating a function such as gain. Other than that, the footage was relatively untouched unless I specify in the video otherwise.
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In playing around with grading, I did find that perhaps this isn’t a camera, in 8-bit 4K modes at least, that you can reach very far into the shadows with, so along with the highlights you will need to be balanced with your exposures to protect the areas you deem most important for the shot you need. We can’t expect everything from a Palmcorder after all! Clearly the 10-bit 1080p modes will give you the most mileage with regard to grading potential.
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However, although it isn’t meant to be a cinema camera, switch it into the S-Log modes and dial down the detail, and you have a very functional discreet documentary camera,
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But the fact that you can also use 1080p at 10-bit 4:2:2 with HLG or S-Log means that you should be good for high quality gradeable footage if 4K isn’t essential.

Sony PXW-Z90 tests on Vimeo

All footage edited and handled within DaVinci Resolve 14.3 with only very basic tinkering. I wanted to keep the picture as close to what comes out of the camera as possible. Therefore aside from the waterfall shots, all were taken with S-Log3 gamma and S-Log3.cine colourspace, and had a basic S-Log3-709 type LUT applied (in this case Type A) in Resolve, and in some cases some minor exposure correction. The waterfall shots were taken at the default sharpness settings, while everything else was taken at detail -5. This I thought gave the most natural 'filmic' looking picture without becoming overly soft. The default was far too sharp.

[Cliff Totten]

For my taste, I found SLog-3 to be completely unusable. SLog-3 is a 16 stop curve and that is just too much gamma compression for a 10-11 stop sensor. It's like a quart of milk into 1 gallon container. Doing this in 8bit just aggravates the problem.

SLog-2 is more realistic. Its job is to take ONLY what this sensor CAN actually output and map it to 0-255. It doesnt record and waste all that unused headroom on air and nothingness.

But hey, thats just me, give SLog-3 a shot and a try for yourself. That has always been my attitude with every workflow topic. Dont experiment on serious stuff,..but absolutely DO experiment in your back yard as much as you possibly can!

I dont believe in the "I dont like it....and neither should you" mentality. On the hiking trail, I will tell you the trail is blocked, but I'll give credit if you go there anyway to see for yourself. I respect that tenacity! Maybe you will find a detour that I didnt see and I'll be the first one be rooting for you to get around it.

That's "my" mentality. But I guess everybody is different.

CT

P.s. Just watched this video. Looks to me like this shooter really under exposed several of his SLog scenes. (I'd have to download this video and look at scopes to be sure) Although I dont see his ungraded shots on scopes, generally speaking you need to expose Slog to the right to get the maximum levels in teh recording. You can then stretch (contrast) the waveform "downward" (roughly speaking) in post. If you record your brightest whites way below 109 IRE (SLog-2) then you are going to give yourself a noisy headache in post. SLog gives you headroom. The more of it you use in field, the better your signal to noise ratio is when yo grade it. This goes for all cameras and Slog-2.

[Michael Stevenson]

Cliff,

You are an obnoxious, internet troll. I am getting tired of reading your stuff. You rant and rave for pages but never prove or post anything that disproves anything Doug Jensen says. Why Doug replies to you is beyond me.

[Cliff Totten]

Wow,...what did I say that was so bad or wrong?

What I write here is no different than what anybody else writes here. We all have different opinions and that's great. I'm not trying to "prove" or "disprove" anything that anybody says here. I'm just giving an opinion like everybody else. I'm not "competing" with Doug or anybody else.

Now,...you will find strong disagreements on ANY video forum. (I think this one is one of the more "mild" ones. There are some truly "harsh" people on some other sites) You will find disagreements going on all over the NAB and IBC conventions floor all day long. If you get 1,000 camera guys and colorists and engineers in a room, you are going to hear PLENTY of vigorous debate by everybody. This is 100% normal and VERY much part of this industry.

Having a different opinion from somebody or anybody here does not make you a "troll". There are no two people in this industry that think the exact same way about every topic.

As far as Doug is concerned, I agree with him on MUCH more than I disagree with him.

I don't know why different opinions are looked at by some to be a bad thing. Did my last post have anything offensive, negative, personal or anything horrible in it?

CT

[Michael Stevenson]

Post proof of your Slog claims or move on.

[John Nantz]

Craig -

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

Simon Wyndham does S-Log for RedShark News

https://www.redsharknews.com/product...nother-classic

After reading Simon's review in the link and one of his other reviews, .... and ... I want one!
Talked to my wife and she asked me which cam I'd sell, the AX53 or the AX100. Good thing she didn't mention both.

For my needs, the NX80 should suffice, not sure what one would be missing. It'd be tough to part with one of its siblings, though.

[Cliff Totten]

Originally Posted by Michael Stevenson

Post proof of your Slog claims or move on.

I did post files that I shot about a couple of pages back. Did you download the test files and look at them?

My SLog-2 claim is super simple: It's just this.....SLog-2 captures more dynamic range than the Cine profiles

The files I uploaded show this. That's all I'm saying. There is nothing more to it. If you look at the files and disagree with me and you don't see further into the shadows on the grass and tree bark, than so be it. Sony can see it, other shooters can see it, I can easily see it but maybe you see something different....and I wont say you are "wrong". That's cool.

We are all free to think for ourselves and I'm totally good with that and I'm not pointing fingers or flaming them for not agreeing with me.

If you think I'm wrong, that's fine! I'm NOT going to call you a "troll" for debating me about it!


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RPk...ew?usp=sharing

CT

[Cliff Totten]

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

It is silly for me to post footage to show how awful something is. Anything can me made to look awful if someone wants to make a point or simply doesn't know what the hell they are doing. I am asking YOU to show me something that proves S-LOG on the Z90 is better than shooting on REC709. Choose any subject you want, any contrast conditions, anything at all, and show us once and for all that S-LOG is better than any PP you want to choose from 1 - 6, even though I don't think any of those PP's truly take advantage of what the camera can do .
.

I think the last words in the last sentence that Doug said in his post is also what I'm generally trying to say as well. I agree with him.

SLog-2 always maps the FULL sensor's read out and the rec709-ish ones don't. This goes for whatever sensor that SLog-2 is calibrated for in each particular camera model.

I don't understand why a couple of people are flaming me for saying this. Why is me saying this so "horrible" to some people?

CT

[Mark Watson]

Originally Posted by John Nantz

Craig -

After reading Simon's review in the link and one of his other reviews, .... and ... I want one!
Talked to my wife and she asked me which cam I'd sell, the AX53 or the AX100. Good thing she didn't mention both.

For my needs, the NX80 should suffice, not sure what one would be missing. It'd be tough to part with one of its siblings, though.

John, I have the AX53, AX100 and now the Z90. The AX100 can still hold its own with good 4K video, in my opinion. But, the BOSS of the AX53 is really great. I recommend you keep the AX53 and get yourself a new NX80 (if you don't need the 4:2:2 10-bit FHD of the Z90). The image stabilization of the Z90 is identical to the AX100, no better. Haven't done a low-light test yet, sorry.

[Doug Jensen]

Cliff,

Thank you for posting Simon's video because it completely proves my point that S-LOG looks like crap on the Z90. Simon and I have known each other for more than a decade and I have nothing but respect for him and his work, so if he cannot make S-LOG look good, then I know I'm on solid ground recommending that it be avoided on the Z90. As for Alister's differing opinion, well, to my knowledge he hasn't actually shown any S-LOG footage and, as you have pointed out, he has a very close relationship with Sony. Enough said.

There is not a single shot in Simon's video that looks acceptable. For example, look at the noise in the sunset at :51, noise in the woman's jacket at 1:13. Look at the waves and rocks at 1:36 and notice how drab it is with no bright whites and no true blacks. And look at the dreary, colorless, drab sunset at 2:05. Is that what we want? The whole video is noisy, flat, low-contrast, low-saturation, and somewhat soft. Nothing pops. Nothing looks clear, clean, and crisp. It's all muddy and low-contrast. Totally unacceptable.

Fortunately, I know Simon personally and I've already shot plenty S-LOG on the Z90 to know where the problem lies -- it is with the camera and not the operator. I cannot stress enough how much better his video would have looked if it had been shot with the Picture Profile that I create in the course of my Z90 training video. In fact, his video would have looked better if it had been shot with any of the default picture profiles 1 - 6 instead of S-LOG.

By comparison, look at the Z90 demo video I shot last October (posted down below). Now, there are a lot of crappy shots in this video too and I'm not going to hold it out there as some kind of glorious example of beautiful cinematography, but please compare the overall clarity, sharpness, dynamic range, of this video with that of Simon's. Which one looks better? I much prefer the look of my video which was all shot with various non-SLOG Picture Profiles -- that also have the time-saving advantage of no grading needed.

Simon's video just reinforces my low opinion of S-LOG on the Z90. And before you go blaming it on the fact that Simon used S-LOG3 instead of S-LOG2, I'm going to tell you that it doesn't matter. S-LOG2 looks like crap too. So I repeat my earlier challenge, put up some great looking S-LOG video of your own or please sit down and be quiet.

Sony PXW-Z90 Test Footage on Vimeo