PXW-Z150 low light issues - help?

[Ron Evans]

At 0db or even 6db the NX5U is fine and at these levels I agree that the AX100 or AX53 is closer to 15db or 21 db of gain but still as clean or more so than the NX5U. The NX3 has newer sensors than the NX5U and I expect these are the same in the NX5R together with XAVC-S codec will give a much better result than the NX5U. I had hoped for 60P UHD from a Sony but am now waiting to see what the Panasonic AG-UX180 or the HC-X1 perform like in the next few months. I expect they may have the same basic characteristics as the 1" Sony's but may give me the replacement for the FDR-AX1 I want.

Ron Evans

[Paul Anderegg]

I love the whole NX5 does better than the Z150 in low light, except that it has 10x the noise. :-D

For my 720p60 broadcast purposes, most of the grain and noise even at 33db is "smoothed out" by the lower resolution of 1MP productions. That's a good name for a video company that can only shoot 720, "1 Megapixel Productions". :-)

Paul

[Peter Barton]

Paul, it probably largely depends how much "low light" you have, and whether you need the gain. For the concerts I normally shoot, I never require any gain with the NX5, and have plenty of room to move - I'm usually 3 or 4 stops away from having the iris open all the way. For the Z150 that's not even an option, even with the iris fully open, I still required gain from the get go.

If I was shooting something darker (i.e. what you do), and needed gain either way, then the NX5 will reach a point where it is going to lose out to the Z150 as far as the noise goes. So for me the NX5 is the better camera, as it never needs any gain on what I'm filming, but for others it may not be the camera to choose.

With that said, I also wanted to post that I've now returned the Z150, and the root cause of my original issue is apparently LED lighting. It turns out the Z150 doesn't like it, and apparently it's not the only camera with this limitation. Quite an issue for me, as LOTS of theatres have LED lighting installed. I'm looking into getting the new NX5, but I'm trying to get it confirmed that it captures images similar to what the original NX5 does, before putting myself out of pocket again. Otherwise I'll be scouring the second hand market!

[Ron Evans]

Peter , all my shoots are in the theatre too with the AX53 or AX100 the ATW will result in a really bad image with excessive colour and noise with these LED lights. I always set all my cameras to the Sony indoor preset. I use my NX5U, AX53, AX100, NX30U and occasionally the FDR-AX1 or CX700. No point in setting a WB as the colour temperatures can change with scenes with the LED lights.

Ron Evans

[Paul Anderegg]

In all my experiences with these low cost handheld cameras, the ones with 3 sensors ALWAYS have beter color accuracy and handling than the 1 sensor ones. If you want things to look as accurate as possible, meaning red is red not pink, and cyan is light blue not neon green, then choosing a camera with full color matrix adjustments such as the X180/X200 Panny UX180 should be a priority.

Paul

[Antony Tsioukas]

Unfortunately UX180 doesn't have 10bit color sampling.

[Paul Anderegg]

Sorry, was thinking UHD.......it doesn't have 720p60 except for 8Mbps or live streaming capability either, or it would be on my "must have" list for that sweet 24mm 20x lens and multi-matrix adjustment menu!

Paul

[Ron Evans]

It is also a single 1" sensor too.

Ron Evans

[Paul Anderegg]

The attached pic demonstrates what that Panasonic can do that the X70 and Z150 CANNOT. The color correction menus for the X70 and Z150 allow adjustments of only 2 colors. The UX180 allows adjustments to 16 of them!!!!!

[Ron Evans]

Yes much more adjustments than on my Sony's. I look forward to some reviews when it comes out later in the year. Could definitely be a replacement for my NX5U and/or my FDR-AX1.

Ron Evans

[Antony Tsioukas]

From the experience of older and newer models of Sony and Panasonic which is the best in low light shots and noise reduction?

[Peter Barton]

Thanks everyone for all the additional info you've posted. I have to say I've always stayed out of the next level up in the Sony cameras, as it means new memory cards (SxS), new batteries, accessories, etc - it's just not in my budget for what I do at the moment. Plus, the NX5 has always been a great camera, and the Z1/Z5/Z7 prior to it were all quite similar - it was just total surprise to get caught out on the Z150 like this. Sounds like for the next purchase I need to look up in the range though, or start looking at other manufacturers (again, I've stuck with Sony due to a large stockpile of existing accessories - once I move away from that, it doesn't matter which way I go really).

Ron, one additional point/question on white balance. I've user the Sony indoor preset on concerts, but it seems to gear more towards less bright tungsten lighting (like in a home), and seems a bit off for most theatre lighting (does depend on the theatre, and the lighting used). I used AWB a few times too, the NX5 is generally good at it, but hates purple (comes out blue), and once or twice went completely off colour for me, so I stopped using it. I generally preset to 4500K these days, and find that to be the closest match to most of the lighting I'll hit in a concert/theatre. Generally in most concerts, the lighting style & colour changes so much that no single setting is likely to catch everything exactly as it was I guess, but I've just found that setting to work best for me.

[Ron Evans]

I use the indoor preset on all the cameras because not all can dial up the level but all have the indoor preset and since all are Sony they are close. I always end up balancing colour in editing anyway but at least that way each camera will stay fixed for the show. Even at the fixed indoor they all in fact do not respond the same so I have preset for each to change in editing. I find the NX5U does not like purple too and the single chip version also do not produce the nice deep red the NX5U can produce. Nothing's perfect !!! As far as resolution detail my NX5U clearly does not match any of the newer single chip cameras I have and I will look at both the Panasonic AG-UX180 since it will do UHD 60P but may also look at the NX5R too.

Ron Evans

[Paul Anderegg]

Ron, that is why I always used fixed xxxxK manual white balance. I want to be able to easily correct any on camera color issues on the entire shoot, instead of messing with each clip as I try to push to white using an on camera LED....we all know how well that works at a large venue or outdoor scene at night!

Paul

[Mark Morreau]

Originally Posted by Peter Barton

With that said, I also wanted to post that I've now returned the Z150, and the root cause of my original issue is apparently LED lighting. It turns out the Z150 doesn't like it, and apparently it's not the only camera with this limitation. Quite an issue for me, as LOTS of theatres have LED lighting installed.

Yes, LED lighting, particularly cheap LED lighting, is the very devil! My Z5s are happy with it, but my EX1s don't like it at all, particularly the saturated blues. Most of my work is in theatres too, so it's a real issue as venues trade their tungsten lights in for LEDs. Here in London the main theatres are sticking with tungsten for the moment: talking to lighting designers and head technicians I get the feeling that they don't think current LED lights are good enough to light skin well, but that as advances from the cinema world trickle down to theatre's level of affordability, good LED lights are just over the horizon.
So how do we deal with this? Hang on to old kit that works, until good LED lights arrive, or start to carry out experiments to see which current cameras will happily record shows lit with LEDs?

FWIW I am now shooting anything lit with LEDs at a manual WB of 8000, and a flourescent light matrix setting on the EX1 cameras. It's not perfect, but I can get a better grade starting from there.