Noob Ax100 questions

Wesley Fischer · July 1st, 2016, 06:58 PM

thanks phil, your input helps. And about the infrared, ya i know cameras cant pull magic when they are in the dark but i wrote the requirement with the understanding that it would be for more close up infra shooting like in a tent or small room. And i havnt seen too many vids on youtube with the ax100 using infra so just included it to see peoples opinions.

im confused on your panning advice though. You say to keep shutter speed down, and dave in the first post says to keep it higher? I probably need to learn exactly what shutter speed is.

oh i just realized dave wasnt necessarily talking about panning, nvm.

Dave Blackhurst · July 2nd, 2016, 02:57 AM

Shutter speed is pretty basic, it's effectively how long each "frame" is "exposed" for (that's old photography lingo).

SO, if you want a bit of motion blur in movement to help hide shimmer or stutter, a "slower" shutter keeps the frame exposed for a longer time, allowing any motion to flow through the "frame", but a faster shutter speed will tend to "freeze" each "frame" (and that's why you get a bit of stutter and shimmer, as each super sharp frame shifts just a bit (think about a flip book, for instance, where each "frame" jumps just a little as you flip though the "still" pictures). I suspect a slightly "softer" image helps with keeping the images looking smoother... thus my observations about the AX53.

Since the AX100 only has 30 "frames" per second vs. 60 in a typical HD video camera, motion can seem a little jumpy (some people complain about 24FPS for this same reason, if you google "judder", it's a term commonly used for the "effect"). I'll take the tradeoff in detail, and be willing to have to run the cam manually vs. full auto. It is a balance, but so far I haven't found the need to go to the "1080/60p" option.

I've found it best to run my 4K cams in shutter priority mode, and range from 60 to maybe 125-ish if possible. the higher you go, the more each frame ends up like a snapshot, and your video "may" start to look a bit like a flip book (and high detail areas start to "shimmer").

For the most part, if you're on a decent monitor (even a cheap 4K TV, which is what I'm using), you'll be more impressed by the "through the window" image, and the little minor issues won't bother you.

Phil Murray · July 3rd, 2016, 08:28 AM

Quote:

im confused on your panning advice though. You say to keep shutter speed down, and dave in the first post says to keep it higher? I probably need to learn exactly what shutter speed is. .

You scared me for a minute as I thought I'd written the wrong thing, but I actually wrote that you should "use slow pans (preferable) or a higher shutter speed." Shutter speed (or frame rate) is simply how long the shutter is open. A frame rate of 30 means 1/30th of a second.

Think of a photograph taken at 1/30th of a second. If you move the camera, you're photo is going to be blurred. If you increase the shutter speed to 1/60th you have a better chance of capturing a clearer photo (depending on panning speed).

The same thing applies to video. Too high of a shutter speed in a scene with lots of action will result in the "flip book effect that Dave talked about. A great example of this is in the fight scenes in the movie Gladiator that have a kind of "strobe" effect. It's all about physics and it all done by manipulating the shutter speed to get the desired effect.

Like Dave, I almost always shoot in shutter priority since gain is usually not an issue and I can control the iris with the ND filters -- something that is a HUGE advantage with this camera and shouldn't be overlooked.

Would you like to see some scenes showing the IR capabilities? I've got a little extra time right now and wouldn't mind doing something quickly for you if you're interested. I could probably do some shutter frame rate examples, too, if you'd like.

Phil

Wesley Fischer · July 3rd, 2016, 09:24 AM

aw i think ive replied too late, I for sure would have liked those examples.

Ron Evans · July 3rd, 2016, 09:43 AM

Frame rate is independent of shutter speed. Frame rate is how many samples per second does the camera record. So one can have a frame rate of 30 frames a sec and a shutter speed of 1/60sec for example. Meaning the sensor is sampled ( its buffer memory recorded ) every 1/30 sec but is open to collection of light for just 1/60 sec so the memory only has 1/60 sec of image data. The faster the shutter speed the less image blur. Just like a still camera. A really fast shutter speed , say 1/240 sec and slow frame rate of 24 or 30P will introduce judder in the image especially if there is a lot of movement.

Personally I do not like the slow frame rates and just record 60P or 60i on all my cameras and set them for shutter priority with a gain limit so that the motion blur is the same on all of them in a multicam edit.

Ron Evans

Dave Baker · July 3rd, 2016, 09:46 AM

Quote:

" Shutter speed (or frame rate) is simply how long the shutter is open. A frame rate of 30 means 1/30th of a second.

That is misinformation!

Shutter speed is indeed how long the shutter is open for each frame, however frame rate is how many frames are exposed per second and not the same thing at all. Meaning that you can shoot at a frame rate of (your example) 30fps with a shutter speed of 1/15, 1/30, 1/60, 1/125, 1/250 etc, if you have a reason to.

Dave

Phil Murray · July 3rd, 2016, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wesley Fischer

aw i think ive replied too late, I for sure would have liked those examples.

Why do you think you replied too late? Have you already bought a camera?

Also, Ron's description of the difference between frame rate and shutter speed is exactly right. He did a much better job of explaining the difference than me! (I was generally referring to the shutter speed.)

Dave Blackhurst · July 3rd, 2016, 11:47 AM

Ron and Dave got the frame rate and shutter speed thing cleared up, they really are two very distinct things, and understanding how they interact helps when dealing with motion in real world shooting contexts....

I'm with Ron on preferring more FRAMES per second, or more "samples" if you will. 24 or 30 FPS means ANYTHING moving in your scene is going to move relatively more between each frame (or "snapshot", if you will) than if you were capturing 60 frames... I'm a "more is usually better" kinda guy in that respect! More "samples" means you get better handling of temporal motion as there is less of a "jump" between each sample.

Of course Film "Movie" cameras have that "special" 24F thing going, and that provides both a specific "look", AND a number of constraints on the camera operator (and for that matter the ENTIRE crew!) to get good results (pan speed, movement in scene, framing, etc. etc.

Since most of us don't travel with a "crew", or shoot controlled scenes on sets or location, it helps to KNOW the camera techniques, but also have a grasp on how the cameras we use work... knowing aperture and shutter and how they affect the results comes in handy...

That's where understanding shutter speed in shooting 4K becomes important - especially with the AX100 and RX's, the images (meaning each frame, AND series of frames) are VERY sharp, which can be good, but ALSO can be "bad"... I think my first tests with the AX100 I let it ride auto, and it was something like 1/350 shutter (If my foggy memory serves), and so I got some mighty "shimmery" and stuttery looking VIDEO (series of frames).... but if I paused, it was quite obvious that each STILL was incredibly sharp and detailed.... (I also had the additional "fun" of tuning my cheap 4K TV/monitor and discovering the factory "sharpness" was at 50, and needed to be 0... 4K is inherently sharp... over sharpening was NASTY!)

By keeping the shutter speed down and letting a little motion blur sneak into those "stills", it helps the eye handle the frame to frame differences due to movement - it will look more natural as the frames will flow together a bit more smoothly. Of course if you pause, you will see fast moving things are noticeably blurred, so if you're planning on pulling stills off your 4K, this goes against what you might want.... it's a trade off.

As a photographer, the goal is often to capture a "frozen" moment in time in a sharp, crisp image... OK, maybe with perfect bokeh, right!? When shifting to video, you have to consider not just those aspects, but also how to deal with objects in motion....and re-tune your approach and equipment accordingly!

Wesley Fischer · July 3rd, 2016, 02:11 PM

Thanks for the answers guys, saving this thread so when i do have a camera ill play around with the settings your guys are talking about and see the actual effects first hand. What you guys say isnt confusing or anyting but Seeing it first hand will really help with my "understanding" of it so to speak.

No i havnt bought it yet phil, but i read you said you had very limited time and i didnt see your post untill an hour or so after you posted.

July 1st, 2016, 06:58 PM	#16
Wesley Fischer New Boot Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: las vegas, nevada Posts: 9	Re: Noob Ax100 questions thanks phil, your input helps. And about the infrared, ya i know cameras cant pull magic when they are in the dark but i wrote the requirement with the understanding that it would be for more close up infra shooting like in a tent or small room. And i havnt seen too many vids on youtube with the ax100 using infra so just included it to see peoples opinions. im confused on your panning advice though. You say to keep shutter speed down, and dave in the first post says to keep it higher? I probably need to learn exactly what shutter speed is. oh i just realized dave wasnt necessarily talking about panning, nvm.

July 2nd, 2016, 02:57 AM	#17
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Noob Ax100 questions Shutter speed is pretty basic, it's effectively how long each "frame" is "exposed" for (that's old photography lingo). SO, if you want a bit of motion blur in movement to help hide shimmer or stutter, a "slower" shutter keeps the frame exposed for a longer time, allowing any motion to flow through the "frame", but a faster shutter speed will tend to "freeze" each "frame" (and that's why you get a bit of stutter and shimmer, as each super sharp frame shifts just a bit (think about a flip book, for instance, where each "frame" jumps just a little as you flip though the "still" pictures). I suspect a slightly "softer" image helps with keeping the images looking smoother... thus my observations about the AX53. Since the AX100 only has 30 "frames" per second vs. 60 in a typical HD video camera, motion can seem a little jumpy (some people complain about 24FPS for this same reason, if you google "judder", it's a term commonly used for the "effect"). I'll take the tradeoff in detail, and be willing to have to run the cam manually vs. full auto. It is a balance, but so far I haven't found the need to go to the "1080/60p" option. I've found it best to run my 4K cams in shutter priority mode, and range from 60 to maybe 125-ish if possible. the higher you go, the more each frame ends up like a snapshot, and your video "may" start to look a bit like a flip book (and high detail areas start to "shimmer"). For the most part, if you're on a decent monitor (even a cheap 4K TV, which is what I'm using), you'll be more impressed by the "through the window" image, and the little minor issues won't bother you.

July 3rd, 2016, 09:24 AM	#19
Wesley Fischer New Boot Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: las vegas, nevada Posts: 9	Re: Noob Ax100 questions aw i think ive replied too late, I for sure would have liked those examples.

July 3rd, 2016, 09:43 AM	#20
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: Noob Ax100 questions Frame rate is independent of shutter speed. Frame rate is how many samples per second does the camera record. So one can have a frame rate of 30 frames a sec and a shutter speed of 1/60sec for example. Meaning the sensor is sampled ( its buffer memory recorded ) every 1/30 sec but is open to collection of light for just 1/60 sec so the memory only has 1/60 sec of image data. The faster the shutter speed the less image blur. Just like a still camera. A really fast shutter speed , say 1/240 sec and slow frame rate of 24 or 30P will introduce judder in the image especially if there is a lot of movement. Personally I do not like the slow frame rates and just record 60P or 60i on all my cameras and set them for shutter priority with a gain limit so that the motion blur is the same on all of them in a multicam edit. Ron Evans

July 3rd, 2016, 11:47 AM	#23
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Noob Ax100 questions Ron and Dave got the frame rate and shutter speed thing cleared up, they really are two very distinct things, and understanding how they interact helps when dealing with motion in real world shooting contexts.... I'm with Ron on preferring more FRAMES per second, or more "samples" if you will. 24 or 30 FPS means ANYTHING moving in your scene is going to move relatively more between each frame (or "snapshot", if you will) than if you were capturing 60 frames... I'm a "more is usually better" kinda guy in that respect! More "samples" means you get better handling of temporal motion as there is less of a "jump" between each sample. Of course Film "Movie" cameras have that "special" 24F thing going, and that provides both a specific "look", AND a number of constraints on the camera operator (and for that matter the ENTIRE crew!) to get good results (pan speed, movement in scene, framing, etc. etc. Since most of us don't travel with a "crew", or shoot controlled scenes on sets or location, it helps to KNOW the camera techniques, but also have a grasp on how the cameras we use work... knowing aperture and shutter and how they affect the results comes in handy... That's where understanding shutter speed in shooting 4K becomes important - especially with the AX100 and RX's, the images (meaning each frame, AND series of frames) are VERY sharp, which can be good, but ALSO can be "bad"... I think my first tests with the AX100 I let it ride auto, and it was something like 1/350 shutter (If my foggy memory serves), and so I got some mighty "shimmery" and stuttery looking VIDEO (series of frames).... but if I paused, it was quite obvious that each STILL was incredibly sharp and detailed.... (I also had the additional "fun" of tuning my cheap 4K TV/monitor and discovering the factory "sharpness" was at 50, and needed to be 0... 4K is inherently sharp... over sharpening was NASTY!) By keeping the shutter speed down and letting a little motion blur sneak into those "stills", it helps the eye handle the frame to frame differences due to movement - it will look more natural as the frames will flow together a bit more smoothly. Of course if you pause, you will see fast moving things are noticeably blurred, so if you're planning on pulling stills off your 4K, this goes against what you might want.... it's a trade off. As a photographer, the goal is often to capture a "frozen" moment in time in a sharp, crisp image... OK, maybe with perfect bokeh, right!? When shifting to video, you have to consider not just those aspects, but also how to deal with objects in motion....and re-tune your approach and equipment accordingly!

July 3rd, 2016, 02:11 PM	#24
Wesley Fischer New Boot Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: las vegas, nevada Posts: 9	Re: Noob Ax100 questions Thanks for the answers guys, saving this thread so when i do have a camera ill play around with the settings your guys are talking about and see the actual effects first hand. What you guys say isnt confusing or anyting but Seeing it first hand will really help with my "understanding" of it so to speak. No i havnt bought it yet phil, but i read you said you had very limited time and i didnt see your post untill an hour or so after you posted.