PXW-X70 vs RX10-II

Cliff Totten · July 17th, 2015, 05:27 AM

Yup, no doubt about being "fiddly". I would love to take both cameras apart and do a "Franken-camera". I'd I'd take out the RX10-II's sensor, motherboard and lens and glue it all into the X70's body!

I have the same problem with the A7s. I absolutely LOVE the 4k image from that thing with the Shogun. I'd say it's easily the best $2,500 image you can get. However, I'm forced into using it with a large rig and external 4k recorder to get what I need form it....yuck!

I suppose in the end though, if I got beautiful footage and people love that, nobody is going to care about "how" I got it. Non of your struggles in the field will matter to them. When you watch what Phillip Bloom's shots for CNN in "The Wonder List" with his A7s, as the viewer, all you say is "WOW!" and you don't care at all what "fiddlyness" he went though to get it.

The DSLR revolution a few years back was really huge. What was intended as a nice feature for "consumers" really exploded too far and made it's way deep into the professional market. To get the full frame look and great low light, real Pro's were buying the 5D2&3 like crazy. I believe that Canon thought that the "fiddlyness" and other shortcomings would protect their video camera sales and keep the big dollar pro away form them....but that didn't happen!

In the end, I'm more of a "get the shot, no matter what it takes" kinda guy. I really want SLOG-2 and 100Mbp/s for certain projects so I'm forced to leave my nice X70 at home and go with the RX10-II. I'll sacrifice allot but image quality for certain things has to be overall #1. Plus, not having to protect my highlights to closely with the RX10-II with SLOG-2 is another plus. You gotta be very very careful of that with the X70. It's a really great camera I guess my X70 will now be mostly reserved for long form only stuff.

I just cant turn down the RX10-II's SLOG-2, 100Mbp/s and it's high frame rate modes even though it's a pain in the butt to shoot with.

Noa Put · July 17th, 2015, 05:38 AM

Quote:

not having to protect my highlights to closely with the RX10-II with SLOG-2 is another plus

Have you allready shot with this camera or is there allready some real world footage out there that shows what advantage slog2 gives on this camera? I have the rx10 and have some love/hate relation with that camera, eventhough it is very easy to operate and change iso and aperture on the fly the frustrating slow zoom makes it often not usable under run and gun. The image quality can be very nice, the detail and colour is right where it should be, only it easily blows out highlights. If the rx10 II would have a much faster zoom and if the camera could deal better with highlights I"d probably sell my rx10 and get the mark 2 instead.

Cliff Totten · July 17th, 2015, 08:06 AM

No Noa, I haven't shot with the RX10-II yet. However I have allot of experience with SLOG-2 on the FS700 and the A7s. So, I know what gamma compression does on those cameras. (comparing rec709-ish gamma to SLOG-2)

Philip Bloom has posted an RX10-II video with some SLOG-2 and EOSHD has mentioned it too. EOSHD is extremely impressed with the RX10-II....and that's coming from Canon guys.

If SLOG-2 doesn't do anything on the RX10-II?.... than believe me, I'll be the FIRST to get up here and say so.

However, I believe that it's very highly likely that SLOG-2 will roll those highlights off quite a bit....very nicely, I'm almost certain.

Dave Blackhurst · July 17th, 2015, 02:45 PM

Eventually there may well be an AX100M2 with the new stacked sensor - it's logical, and at that point the "consumer" cam will surpass the "pro".... (do consumers even BUY cameras anymore?! The camera aisle at the Fry's I went to the other day was MOSTLY empty bins/mounts, with very few "old stock" cameras on one and a half displays out of nearly a dozen.... tumbleweeds...).

I've said for a while that if one thinks of the 1" class sensor Sonys as a "system", you can cover almost any shooting scenario - an AX100 (or X70, I suppose) has it's place, the RX10 (and now the RX10M2) has another, and the little RX100 series has yet another (though rather limited). ONE camera is always going to have limitations. With 4K, you can get away with one camera cropped and panned to FHD, so you get some gains there, but still, having a workable second cam that fits "other" shooting scenarios has advantages.

All that aside, I would in fact have one of each of the above (now with the latest versions, if I didn't have the existing ones - the prior ones are excellent cameras in their own right, shooting very very good HD). Still very economical, still quite compact and fairly light, enough commonality on functions to be sort of easy to remember the menus and such, and the image quality is hard to beat.

Cliff Totten · July 17th, 2015, 07:29 PM

I think this topic really boils down to a three separate and basic questions:

Do you want a camera with maximum image quality for the price with convenience or feature set being a secondary need?

Do you want a camera with maximum convenience features for the price with image quality being a secondary need?

Do you want a little bit of both with no "maximum" on anything?

I can certainly see situations where I would want all three at different times or shooting different events. However, if I really think about it, I tend to gravitate to the "Let me begin with maximum quality first and I will suffer though all the convenience heartaches later" category! I own many cameras including and A7s that I rig the crap out of. I sacrifice and go through all the convenience Hell just so I can have that amazing 4k full frame image. I hate shooting in the field with it but I darn sure LOVE grading and editing those Shogun UHD ProRes files in post.

And yes,..I can understand people have the exact opposite mindset. "Just give me a basic image. I'm not into grading it and I want my life to be easy during the shoot"...I get those people too.

So yeah,..my X70 stays but my RX10-II will probably be the one I shoot allot more with. Between the two, I need the maximum quality first for short clip projects. (long form shooting aside..that is the X70's role) Big client projects will see the FS700 with 4K on the shogun.

This topic is not as "weird" as some have suggested after all. ;-)

Cliff Totten · July 24th, 2015, 08:01 PM

Just took my new RX10-II for a 30 min spin. The new stacked 1 inch-type sensor has NO rolling shutter in 4k!!...it's GONE! Woah! SLOG-2 looks fantastic, highlight handling is a HUGE improvement....dynamic range is EASILY way better than previous 1inch-type models with SLOG-2 turned on. (rec 709 highlights seems the same as previous 1inch-type) Way to go Sony...you fixed it!!

The high speed frame rates are spectacular for a cheap $1,300 camera.

This thing is a little MONSTER!

Cliff Totten · July 26th, 2015, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

Have you allready shot with this camera or is there allready some real world footage out there that shows what advantage slog2 gives on this camera? I have the rx10 and have some love/hate relation with that camera, eventhough it is very easy to operate and change iso and aperture on the fly the frustrating slow zoom makes it often not usable under run and gun. The image quality can be very nice, the detail and colour is right where it should be, only it easily blows out highlights. If the rx10 II would have a much faster zoom and if the camera could deal better with highlights I"d probably sell my rx10 and get the mark 2 instead.

Have shot a few hours now with the RX10-II. Let me tell you, SLOG-2 is brilliant on this camera! It makes all the difference in the world. It's a huge improvement in dynamic range and no more burnt high lights. You can over expose +1stop, (or more) see deeper into the shadows and STILL protect your highlights better that any rec 709-ish profile on it.

Plus you get many more profile options, knee, slope and a ton of painting options.

Even without the 4k, with all the other features, it's a giant upgrade. It looks the same on the outside but it's very different on the inside.

Noa Put · July 27th, 2015, 01:13 AM

Is it easy to colorcorrect that slog2 footage so that it matches other camera's, like a ax100? Or to make it look like what this camera produces colorwise when you are not shootng s-log2? I really like the colors my rx10 produces but have some doubts how easy it would be to match a slog2 image from the markII with that.

Cliff Totten · July 27th, 2015, 06:16 PM

Sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's not. It just takes practice and you NEED your scopes to really grade SLOG-2 right.

However, the reward for your work is high. You can capture around 12 stops or so in SLOG-2. Any other good looking REC709-ish gamma will only hold 6 or 7 stops? (around there?) So when you are not shooting in SLOG-2, you are throwing away highlights that would otherwise be clipped by REC709.

SLOG-2's latitude is just sooo much more forgiving. The RX10 and RX10-II has more dynamic range that you realize. You just cant use it all with other "normal looking" profiles.

Noa Put · July 28th, 2015, 01:28 AM

I still need to see if it is easily done, like if you take a shot in the standard profile from the rx10 and then shoot the exact same scene in slog2, grade it and make it match with the standard colorprofile. The only difference I would expect then is that slog2 will display a much higher dynamic range. I might be wrong but that slog2 is still 4:2:0 8 bit so grading it will have limitations and the higher bitrate will not be of any help in such a case.

Mark Goodsell · July 28th, 2015, 09:31 AM

Like anything, ya have to grab the 'right' tool for the job ...and different jobs require different tools. In my case, what I like about the X70 is:

1) 10-bit recording to meet specs
2) Ability to easily whip the cam out and generally be able to capture quick shots that could otherwise be missed.
3) ND filters
4) Good autofocus (and other 'auto' features when I need them)
5) Good steadyshot
6) XLR inputs and also mini-mic input when I need it
7) Easy zoom (easier than DSLRs)
8) Form factor (small size and ability to remove handle and lens shade for a 'normal' cam look).

All these features in a small package plus a 1" sensor make the X70 a really wonderful camera and a good tool for the kind of shooting I do most.

Then again, sometimes, using a DSLR-like cam, is the 'right' tool too, for low light shots and clandestine shooting. I really had my eye on the Canon XC10 or the Samsung NX1, maybe in the future...

Mark Goodsell · July 28th, 2015, 11:14 AM

Oh, and I should add, the S&Q feature is pretty darn cool too for easily being able to do fast motion video.

Cliff Totten · July 28th, 2015, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

I still need to see if it is easily done, like if you take a shot in the standard profile from the rx10 and then shoot the exact same scene in slog2, grade it and make it match with the standard colorprofile. The only difference I would expect then is that slog2 will display a much higher dynamic range. I might be wrong but that slog2 is still 4:2:0 8 bit so grading it will have limitations and the higher bitrate will not be of any help in such a case.

Well?...if you shoot a scene in rec.709 and the same one in SLOG-2. Yes the SLOG-2 will have more highlight detail and more dynamic range overall. However, when you grade/normalize it back to a rec.709 (so it looks pleasing) you are going to have to "choose" where to shift all that dynamic range. You might shift your highlights up to let them clip at the same point as your rec.709 highlights clip. Or, you can shift the mid-tones down and sacrifice your shadows instead.

In the end, you are still chopping off the dynamic range to fit that into rec.709 is a pretty way. (You just can't leave it SLOG-2 and deliver it)

So yeah,...you get "can" get the same result as rec.709's "baked-in" look but with SLOG-2, you always have the options in post as to what to save and what to sacrifice upon final grading and delivery. Rec.709 is a more destructive process and less forgiving. Once you clip something it's gone forever. In SLOG-2, you are archiving more of the image in flat way so you can expand it and decide later how to place it in your grade. (It's not raw but SLOG-2 is a bit less destructive than rec.709)

For speed, I make pre-graded templates that I drop in my SLOG-2 tracks. All I need to do then is tweak them for each scene.

Noa Put · July 28th, 2015, 12:44 PM

If only someone could provide a 5 second clip with a high dynamic scene (harsh light and shadows in one image) with some different colours (like green gras and flowers) taken in slog2 and the same shot in a standard rec.709 profile and place the 2 raw files directly from the card online to download, now that would solve many questions :)

Cliff Totten · July 28th, 2015, 07:42 PM

I can upload some shots for you this weekend. Until then, you can certainly find many SLOG-2 videos on YouTube and Vimeo.

SLOG-2's abilities are very well documented across all Sony cameras that have it.

Canon's C-LOG , Panny's V-LOG, Arri's LOG and Sony's SLOG, SLOG-2 and SLOG-3....they were all engineered to do something that rec.709 can do, which is hold 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13+ stops of dynamic range.

Believe them, they work wonders!

Gamma compression is the bomb! (if you have the time to work with them in post)

CT ;-)

July 17th, 2015, 05:27 AM	#31
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	Re: PXW-X70 vs RX10-II Yup, no doubt about being "fiddly". I would love to take both cameras apart and do a "Franken-camera". I'd I'd take out the RX10-II's sensor, motherboard and lens and glue it all into the X70's body! I have the same problem with the A7s. I absolutely LOVE the 4k image from that thing with the Shogun. I'd say it's easily the best $2,500 image you can get. However, I'm forced into using it with a large rig and external 4k recorder to get what I need form it....yuck! I suppose in the end though, if I got beautiful footage and people love that, nobody is going to care about "how" I got it. Non of your struggles in the field will matter to them. When you watch what Phillip Bloom's shots for CNN in "The Wonder List" with his A7s, as the viewer, all you say is "WOW!" and you don't care at all what "fiddlyness" he went though to get it. The DSLR revolution a few years back was really huge. What was intended as a nice feature for "consumers" really exploded too far and made it's way deep into the professional market. To get the full frame look and great low light, real Pro's were buying the 5D2&3 like crazy. I believe that Canon thought that the "fiddlyness" and other shortcomings would protect their video camera sales and keep the big dollar pro away form them....but that didn't happen! In the end, I'm more of a "get the shot, no matter what it takes" kinda guy. I really want SLOG-2 and 100Mbp/s for certain projects so I'm forced to leave my nice X70 at home and go with the RX10-II. I'll sacrifice allot but image quality for certain things has to be overall #1. Plus, not having to protect my highlights to closely with the RX10-II with SLOG-2 is another plus. You gotta be very very careful of that with the X70. It's a really great camera I guess my X70 will now be mostly reserved for long form only stuff. I just cant turn down the RX10-II's SLOG-2, 100Mbp/s and it's high frame rate modes even though it's a pain in the butt to shoot with.

July 17th, 2015, 08:06 AM	#33
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	Re: PXW-X70 vs RX10-II No Noa, I haven't shot with the RX10-II yet. However I have allot of experience with SLOG-2 on the FS700 and the A7s. So, I know what gamma compression does on those cameras. (comparing rec709-ish gamma to SLOG-2) Philip Bloom has posted an RX10-II video with some SLOG-2 and EOSHD has mentioned it too. EOSHD is extremely impressed with the RX10-II....and that's coming from Canon guys. If SLOG-2 doesn't do anything on the RX10-II?.... than believe me, I'll be the FIRST to get up here and say so. However, I believe that it's very highly likely that SLOG-2 will roll those highlights off quite a bit....very nicely, I'm almost certain. Last edited by Cliff Totten; July 17th, 2015 at 09:23 AM.

July 17th, 2015, 02:45 PM	#34
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: PXW-X70 vs RX10-II Eventually there may well be an AX100M2 with the new stacked sensor - it's logical, and at that point the "consumer" cam will surpass the "pro".... (do consumers even BUY cameras anymore?! The camera aisle at the Fry's I went to the other day was MOSTLY empty bins/mounts, with very few "old stock" cameras on one and a half displays out of nearly a dozen.... tumbleweeds...). I've said for a while that if one thinks of the 1" class sensor Sonys as a "system", you can cover almost any shooting scenario - an AX100 (or X70, I suppose) has it's place, the RX10 (and now the RX10M2) has another, and the little RX100 series has yet another (though rather limited). ONE camera is always going to have limitations. With 4K, you can get away with one camera cropped and panned to FHD, so you get some gains there, but still, having a workable second cam that fits "other" shooting scenarios has advantages. All that aside, I would in fact have one of each of the above (now with the latest versions, if I didn't have the existing ones - the prior ones are excellent cameras in their own right, shooting very very good HD). Still very economical, still quite compact and fairly light, enough commonality on functions to be sort of easy to remember the menus and such, and the image quality is hard to beat.

July 17th, 2015, 07:29 PM	#35
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	Re: PXW-X70 vs RX10-II I think this topic really boils down to a three separate and basic questions: Do you want a camera with maximum image quality for the price with convenience or feature set being a secondary need? Do you want a camera with maximum convenience features for the price with image quality being a secondary need? Do you want a little bit of both with no "maximum" on anything? I can certainly see situations where I would want all three at different times or shooting different events. However, if I really think about it, I tend to gravitate to the "Let me begin with maximum quality first and I will suffer though all the convenience heartaches later" category! I own many cameras including and A7s that I rig the crap out of. I sacrifice and go through all the convenience Hell just so I can have that amazing 4k full frame image. I hate shooting in the field with it but I darn sure LOVE grading and editing those Shogun UHD ProRes files in post. And yes,..I can understand people have the exact opposite mindset. "Just give me a basic image. I'm not into grading it and I want my life to be easy during the shoot"...I get those people too. So yeah,..my X70 stays but my RX10-II will probably be the one I shoot allot more with. Between the two, I need the maximum quality first for short clip projects. (long form shooting aside..that is the X70's role) Big client projects will see the FS700 with 4K on the shogun. This topic is not as "weird" as some have suggested after all. ;-)

July 24th, 2015, 08:01 PM	#36
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	Re: PXW-X70 vs RX10-II Just took my new RX10-II for a 30 min spin. The new stacked 1 inch-type sensor has NO rolling shutter in 4k!!...it's GONE! Woah! SLOG-2 looks fantastic, highlight handling is a HUGE improvement....dynamic range is EASILY way better than previous 1inch-type models with SLOG-2 turned on. (rec 709 highlights seems the same as previous 1inch-type) Way to go Sony...you fixed it!! The high speed frame rates are spectacular for a cheap $1,300 camera. This thing is a little MONSTER!

July 27th, 2015, 01:13 AM	#38
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: PXW-X70 vs RX10-II Is it easy to colorcorrect that slog2 footage so that it matches other camera's, like a ax100? Or to make it look like what this camera produces colorwise when you are not shootng s-log2? I really like the colors my rx10 produces but have some doubts how easy it would be to match a slog2 image from the markII with that.

July 27th, 2015, 06:16 PM	#39
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	Re: PXW-X70 vs RX10-II Sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's not. It just takes practice and you NEED your scopes to really grade SLOG-2 right. However, the reward for your work is high. You can capture around 12 stops or so in SLOG-2. Any other good looking REC709-ish gamma will only hold 6 or 7 stops? (around there?) So when you are not shooting in SLOG-2, you are throwing away highlights that would otherwise be clipped by REC709. SLOG-2's latitude is just sooo much more forgiving. The RX10 and RX10-II has more dynamic range that you realize. You just cant use it all with other "normal looking" profiles.

July 28th, 2015, 01:28 AM	#40
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: PXW-X70 vs RX10-II I still need to see if it is easily done, like if you take a shot in the standard profile from the rx10 and then shoot the exact same scene in slog2, grade it and make it match with the standard colorprofile. The only difference I would expect then is that slog2 will display a much higher dynamic range. I might be wrong but that slog2 is still 4:2:0 8 bit so grading it will have limitations and the higher bitrate will not be of any help in such a case.

July 28th, 2015, 09:31 AM	#41
Mark Goodsell Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: WI Posts: 367	Re: PXW-X70 vs RX10-II Like anything, ya have to grab the 'right' tool for the job ...and different jobs require different tools. In my case, what I like about the X70 is: 1) 10-bit recording to meet specs 2) Ability to easily whip the cam out and generally be able to capture quick shots that could otherwise be missed. 3) ND filters 4) Good autofocus (and other 'auto' features when I need them) 5) Good steadyshot 6) XLR inputs and also mini-mic input when I need it 7) Easy zoom (easier than DSLRs) 8) Form factor (small size and ability to remove handle and lens shade for a 'normal' cam look). All these features in a small package plus a 1" sensor make the X70 a really wonderful camera and a good tool for the kind of shooting I do most. Then again, sometimes, using a DSLR-like cam, is the 'right' tool too, for low light shots and clandestine shooting. I really had my eye on the Canon XC10 or the Samsung NX1, maybe in the future... __________________ Mark Goodsell

July 28th, 2015, 11:14 AM	#42
Mark Goodsell Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: WI Posts: 367	Re: PXW-X70 vs RX10-II Oh, and I should add, the S&Q feature is pretty darn cool too for easily being able to do fast motion video. __________________ Mark Goodsell

July 28th, 2015, 12:44 PM	#44
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: PXW-X70 vs RX10-II If only someone could provide a 5 second clip with a high dynamic scene (harsh light and shadows in one image) with some different colours (like green gras and flowers) taken in slog2 and the same shot in a standard rec.709 profile and place the 2 raw files directly from the card online to download, now that would solve many questions :)

July 28th, 2015, 07:42 PM	#45
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	Re: PXW-X70 vs RX10-II I can upload some shots for you this weekend. Until then, you can certainly find many SLOG-2 videos on YouTube and Vimeo. SLOG-2's abilities are very well documented across all Sony cameras that have it. Canon's C-LOG , Panny's V-LOG, Arri's LOG and Sony's SLOG, SLOG-2 and SLOG-3....they were all engineered to do something that rec.709 can do, which is hold 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13+ stops of dynamic range. Believe them, they work wonders! Gamma compression is the bomb! (if you have the time to work with them in post) CT ;-)