Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!

[Jody Eldred]

I'll say it again: most of this (ALL of this?) discussion is academic.

How many of you have actually viewed your 4K footage on a 4K monitor (even a consumer one?)
Did you see a lot of compression artifacting? Of course not.

To repeat: I projected my 4K X70 footage onto a 15-foot screen using a high-end professional 4K projector in the main color grading suite at Roush Media in Burbank. They grade feature films and TV, ranging from 35mm to Alexa, Red, FS700, Canon 5Ds, Canon C300s and C500s, and Sony F55s in 4K (XAVC, Log, Raw.) Sr. Colorist Keith Roush remarked that the footage from the X70 graded like images from the $16,000 (plus lenses) C500 and was very impressed. As was I. (And to repeat again, I own an F55 and have shot numerous 4K projects in the abovementioned color gamuts. So I have some perspective on this.)

You can talk numbers and algorithms all day long, but what it comes down to is "How does it actually LOOK?" In the demanding environment of that 4K color grading suite where EVERY fault is purposely revealed, the 4K X70 footage looked AMAZING... far better than it should for a $2,500 camera!

[Cliff Totten]

I'm certainly not saying it looks "bad". It actually looks OK. I have watched plenty of X70 4K footage on my 70 inch 4k consumer TV. Yes, you will see macro blocking on highly complex areas that have random motion. Tree branches and leaves in my forest shots will block up. Water and ocean wave splashes will too.

And yes, if you shoot with a desaturated, flat profile, you will notice more breakdown after to add the contrast and saturation back. You certainly don't need an expensive studio to see it. You are talking high-end Hollywood major Studio productions? If you brought 60Mbp/s to 99% of them, they'd laugh at you. Those guys don't want to see any long GOP 8 bit codec. They all want at least 10 4:2:2 ProRes. For "real" (snobby) Hollywood colorists, that's the typical "minimum" that they expect.

Yes, 60Mbp/s looks good. I'm not saying it sucks. However, I think that if 60Mbp/s was perfectly OK, than every other camera from Panasonic, Canon, JVC, Canon and Sony would use it. But they dont....nobody does. 100Mbp/s h.264 is the de facto "low-end" UHD standard in the industry today.

Ever wonder why Sony upgraded the AX100 with 100Mbp/s? Do you really think that was unnecessary on Sony's part? If you do, well?...Sony engineers obviously disagree with you.

[Jody Eldred]

Not sure why you're seeing blocking. I am not and have shot extensive movement: trees, leaves, waterfall. Zero macroblocking. None. And no banding either.

I have a VERY picky colorist and we were looking at this on the most unforgiving platform that exists, designed to reveal any flaws. It looked terrific-- and I am picky too.

I also looked at the footage on a very low-end $1,000 Chinese 4K consumer monitor with a colleague who shoots F55 and F65 and we were all very surprised at its quality.

I just do not see (literally) how this discussion on "low" bit rate has any pertinence in the real world of the finished product and how the viewer will perceive it. The X70 makes stunning images and it's a $2,500 camera for gosh sakes!! Give it a rest!

[Jody Eldred]

And Clif, when you write, "This really is a shame. Can somebody please tell me why Sony is doing this? The X70 is an "XDCAM" with a codec that is easily beat by it's Handycam and Action Cam cousins.

This is embarrassing and it's a shame.", then you later write, "I'm not saying it sucks.", I have a hard time trying to understand what you're trying to communicate.

[Jody Eldred]

And a "final" note... Mbps is only one small part of the equation as to how an image looks. If you bet all your money on that one hand you'll lose every time. Codecs matter. Sensors matter. The codec chip matters. Color space matters. Color gamut matters. Dynamic range matters. The type of compression algorithm matters. In fact, I submit that ALL those matter more than the Mbps rate.

And the compression algorithms Sony uses in its codecs are different from those used by Canon, Panasonic, Red, Arri, etc., and they are in a constant state of evolution. You cannot compare 60 Mbps from one manufacturer to another with meaningful metrics.

Same goes for the 100 Mbps in the AX100 and the 60 Mbps in the X70. The codecs are different. The X70 has vastly different Picture Profiles from the AZ100 offering far more latitude in how its image can look.

Lots of factors to consider that MUST be considered.

[David McCann]

Wow Cliff. U r sorta off ur rocker man! Chill out and stop thinking about numbers so much. I bet u use a PC because u can hit better numbers for cheaper? Am I right? What about Android vs iPhone? U must be Android cus again the number, ON PAPER, look better!! I had a feeling that this whole bitrate conspiracy was going to end with someone like Jody doing real world work with the files!! Plus all your "pros" that will not touch a petty 60mbs file prob get footage from way less nowadays. Im sure they have even used some, wait for it..... iPhone video and found it acceptable for what it was being used for. And if u don't like the cam, go get one of the 100+ bitrate cams so u can feel better and stop annoying the people that are trying to work together to talk about a camera they happen to appreciate or may be researching. In short, noone cares about your whining!!! And thanks Jody!!!

[Cliff Totten]

The CODEC inside all forms of XAVC-S-L-I is the same...industry standard MPEG H.264 at various levels. The hardware VSLI chips might be different but the CODEC across them is all the same.

Forget about Panny, Canon, and JVC. Let's just look at Sony itself. XAVC has a tall ladder of H.264 implementations for XAVC. It ranges from 8bit, 4:2:0 Long GOP@ 60Mbp/s and goes up to 10bit 4:2:2 10bit Intra @ 600Mbp/s with different frame rates..

Today 60Mbp/s 8bit, 4:2:0 is the LOWEST rung on the XAVC ladder. In fact, I will argue that Sony will not likely ever build a future 4K camera locked at 60Mbp/s only. (they have conceded that its' not enough today even for ENTRY level camcorders) I think it's safe to say that all new Sony models will carry at least 100Mbp/s as an option. Yes, even the grandmother-friendly AX33 does 100Mbps.

Honestly, I never expected to hear anybody say; "60Mbp/s is good enough for me" Especially not when every other Sony camera now has 100Mbp/s. If 60 gives you all you want, does that mean if Sony adds 100 to the X70 that you will NOT use it?...because there is no reason to,....right? ;-)

As far as the Hollywood colorist goes. I have never myself heard of any colorist that "likes" 8bit 4:2:0 video with EXTREMELY high compression ratios like 60Mbp/s in UHD. (never met one) Dont know what to tell you there. Extremely high compression rations are always a colorists worst enemy. (so is 4:2:0 video that has HALF the chroma resolution that luma resolution...and 8 bit?..hahah)

If 60Mbp/s is "good enough"...I'm sorry but Sony doesn't agree with that. This is why they built XAVC with many, many higher specs.

Look,...I think 60Mbp/s is "OK" if you dont need to grade it. That is why I say it doesn't "suck". But yes, I do agree with Sony on giving 100Mbp/s to ALL 4k models from here on in. And I agree completely with Panny, JVC and Canon engineers and going 100Mbp/s or higher too for their models too. I agree with Sony giving the tiny 4k ActionCam 100 also. Sony and the rest of the industry is doing the right thing today with 100Mbp/s!

Now Sony,...please do this for your X70 too. For the EXACT SAME REASONS that you did it for your entire 4k camera fleet.

CT

p.s. On the issue of dynamic range, sensor resolving power, noise and all other aspects of every camera?...this is a completely separate argument than the CODEC topic here. Yes, obviously those are "pre-CODEC" conditions that are not in this X70 bitrate debate.

[Cliff Totten]

Originally Posted by David McCann

Wow Cliff. U r sorta off ur rocker man! Chill out and stop thinking about numbers so much. I bet u use a PC because u can hit better numbers for cheaper? Am I right? What about Android vs iPhone? U must be Android cus again the number, ON PAPER, look better!! I had a feeling that this whole bitrate conspiracy was going to end with someone like Jody doing real world work with the files!! Plus all your "pros" that will not touch a petty 60mbs file prob get footage from way less nowadays. Im sure they have even used some, wait for it..... iPhone video and found it acceptable for what it was being used for. And if u don't like the cam, go get one of the 100+ bitrate cams so u can feel better and stop annoying the people that are trying to work together to talk about a camera they happen to appreciate or may be researching. In short, noone cares about your whining!!! And thanks Jody!!!

If it bothers you, or are offended by this topic, why not just pass over it? Is somebody making you read this against your will or something?

[David McCann]

It bothers me in the regard that you are well beyond stating facts and constructive input for everyone. It borders on being a troll. But u said this... "Look,...I think 60Mbp/s is "OK" if you dont need to grade it." Ask Jody about that. Im sure he could tell u again how it colored fine!!! Anyways, Im not trying to start anything. I was just reading thru and all I kept thinking was "give it up already!"

[Cliff Totten]

Wow,...sounds like you are really taking this bitrate and CODEC stuff to heart. It's certainly not something to stress about. As far as grading 8bit 4:2:0 60Mbp/s?...if your guy likes it, good for him. You can certainly grade ANY video you want. There are no hard "rules" that say you cant grade ANY video....no matter how compressed it is. Who is to say what looks "great" and what doesn't? It's all subjective. You could rip a 4k 15Mbp/s video off YouTube with the RX10-II's SLOG-2 gamma curve and grade it. You might even say that it looks awesome. Who am I to say you are wrong?

It's all good,..we are all just chit chatting here anyway. No need to get upset about the numbers or any opinion that anybody has here. It's just all opinion anyway.

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by David McCann

Chill out and stop thinking about numbers so much. I bet u use a PC because u can hit better numbers for cheaper? Am I right?

Some people like talking numbers, I"m not one of them but I do respect those who do, maybe you should too?

Originally Posted by David McCann

In short, noone cares about your whining!!!

Maybe some do? You might not agree with Cliffs statements but he just has an opinion on the matter, just like so many others do. You can either join the discussion in a civilized manner or stay out because at this moment you are only adding noise with your insults.

[Ron Evans]

Cliff is clearly a Sony fan as he has at least two Sony's and would obviously like Sony to up the data rate on the X70 . Not sure if he thinks Sony will listen to him but I doubt it. It is either in their plans or not. As previously stated I think the main purpose of the X70 is as a HD 10 bit 4:2:2 camera for which its data rate is fine. To truly meet the XDCAM 4k features ( Z100. FS7, F5 etc ) it would need to go to 50/60P and at least 150Mbps like the PXW-Z100 or the FDR-AX1, in my mind that just is not going to happen. The mistake Sony made I think is putting 4K on it at all. I have an AX100 and an AX1 and can tell you the image quality from the AX1 at 60P 150Mbps is better than either of these cameras shooting 30P at 60 or 100Mbps. If you want to see the leaves or grass move smoothly you need frame rates faster than 25/30P. I got the AX100 for its potential resale value rather than the CX900 and only shoot HD on it which is lovely and better than my NX5U !!!

Ron Evans

[Cliff Totten]

Sony fan? I'm embarrassed to say that I'm a Sony "tool" or Sony "puppet"!!

I have now owned 16 different Sony models in the last 20 years. This includes Handycam, NXCAM, XDCAM and Alpha models.

My current lineup is EX1r, X70, A7s and AX100. MY new RX10-II will be here on Friday. My AX100 goes on eBay next week and my A7s will be replaced by the A7s-II when that hits the streets. I'm thinking IBC time or in Q4.

My complaints to Sony about 100mbp/s are mostly just me telling Sony to be consistent, that's all.

If they are going to give a $900 Handycam 100mbp/s than please give at least the same thing to a $2500 Pro model too.

Sony has stated that they are working on it but won't give any promises. They know that a 60mbp/s cap is very unpopular because of this consistency mismatch.

[Jody Eldred]

I truly wonder if ANYONE here has actually done the tests that I have done with this camera? Have you, Clif?

This isn't personal (it really isn't), so there's no feelings to be hurt here, and I intend no one any ill will. I just want the truth to be told and correct error.

People slam codecs and bit rates and all kinds of stuff, CMOS imagers with "rolling shutter", purporting that those are terrible, awful, horrible, unthinkable factors that render certain cameras unacceptable for professional use. They usually do this with ZERO real-world tests, and certainly not tests under rigorous and exacting conditions such as the demanding 4K color grading theater at Roush Media (with one of the best colorists in Hollywood), as well as ShapeShifter Post in Hollywood with Senior Colorist Randy Coonfield. I am fortunate to live in Los Angeles and work with VERY demanding DPs, directors, producers, and colorists (Oscar and Emmy winners) who will tear to shreds any camera system that comes their way if they dislike it for any reason. This is the crucible and I live in it.

In the 39 years I've worked professionally as a D.P. (with one national Emmy under my belt), I have owned the following: Sony D600 Betacam SP, Sony PD100, Sony PD150, Sony F900, Sony F900R, Sony F350 XDCAM HD, Sony Z1U, Sony V1U, Sony EX1, Sony EX3, Sony 3D1U (3D camera), Sony FS700, Sony F55, Sony PXW-X70, and a fleet of GoPros. I was Sony's primary U.S. tester for most of these cameras, plus the PDW-700 and F800, and have used them in a wide range of programs such as ABC World News Tonight, GMA, Nightline, 20/20, Dateline NBC, 48 Hours, PBS "Frontline", Oprah, National Geographic, CBS dramas "J.A.G", "NCIS", and "NCIS: Los Angeles", NBC drama "Medium", feature films, network comedies, and commercials. I was in the Iraq War with Peter Jennings and Diane Sawyer, the L.A. Riots with CNN, devastating fires with ABC News, have shot underwater for CBS News, JAG, NCIS, Nat Geo, and Sony, worked with US presidents and hundreds of celebrities such as Michael Jackson, Cher, Christie Brinkley, Cindy Crawford, Sharon Stone, Oprah, even Charles Manson... too many others to even remember. I've worked extensively on the open ocean, in jungles in Southeast Asia, in alpine environments, in Death Valley.

And yes, I've shot weddings too.

Many thousands have seen my presentations at events like NAB, at Sundance, at DV Expo, and SATIS in Paris. They will tell you that my sole job is to share my experiences with these different camera platforms in REAL WORLD conditions... what works and what doesn't work so well... what challenges I encountered... the mistakes I made and how I overcame them (if I did.)

I am your Crash-Test Dummy. I am your Consumer Reports. I am the guy that has used just about every camera system out there (including the first RED camera) and has made all the mistakes you can make!

When I talk about a camera system like the X70, I have a broad base of comparative analysis. It does not make me right, only experienced. I take my work seriously and am concerned ultimately about one thing, "Does this camera system deliver what I need it to in real-world conditions for my client's demands and my audience's expectations?"

Specs, numbers, codecs, algorithms, bit depth, data rates are all good starting points. But the speed at which technology advances often makes images recorded at last month's higher data rate inferior to this month's lower one. I've witnessed that firsthand for a good decade now. I've had engineers call me out in front of several hundred attendees stating that there's no way the camera can look good with a 35 mbps data rate at 4:2:0 and the networks will never air that. (Except of course the top-rated drama on television, "NCIS", which utilized some of my footage in the show's opening montage, 35 mbps, 4:2:0...)

Bottom line: use anything you like. It does not matter one whit to me. Feel free to ignore the experiences I've had, the mistakes I've made, and real-world tests under demanding conditions. Doesn't matter to me. My job is not to sell cameras or anything else. My job is simply to be the best visual storyteller I can be using the best tools for each job, and to share that with anyone who's interested. And to be a truth-teller and dispel rumors so my colleagues can be better visual storytellers too.

We stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. I've been very fortunate to have shared company with some of the greatest visual storytellers of all time. I hope a little of their magic has been imparted to me, as I hope I've been able to impart some of that to others along the way as well.

[Paul Anderegg]

Jody, I am sure (somewhat sure) you would agree that a properly calibrated camera (colorimetry) with a crappy codec looks better than an ugly scope picture on the best codec available!

My number one wish to Santa is for Sony to stop putting their greens half way to yellow. :-P

Paul