Any word on XAVC-L plugin for FCP X?

David Dixon · February 21st, 2015, 04:49 PM

I heard back from EditReady...they have a blog post explaining their work:

EditReady supports XAVC-L (PXW-X70, PXW-FS7) on the Mac

...but in an email to me it was explained that Apple's underlying video framework does not support XAVC-L. The way they got EditReady to do transcoding was to not rely on Apple's framework (they called it QuickTime, but isn't it technically AV Foundation now?). They created "a new H.264 decoder, thanks to the open source FFmpeg project." There were other difficulties as well - see the link above. But this solution transcodes to ProRes (and quite a few codecs as well). And of course the software has several other features beyond just transcoding.

But, since all the Passthrough feature does is rewrap, the rewrapped files are still not recognized by QuickTime or FCPX. So to get this to work may take a plugin, or Sony may be working with Apple to incorporate the import in a future FCPX update, or it may be handled by another Pro Codecs update. And it sounds like Atticus's script that just rewraps wouldn't help on a Mac. But I'm told that Premiere Pro CC will do the import, so that has to be due to something Adobe is doing rather than Sony or Apple.

All that being said, I'm really enjoying the camera. I can live with the transcoding, and I have never tested the AVCHD so I have no opinion on the AVCHD vs. 10 bit XAVC issue. I shoot pretty flat in-camera and grade in FCPX so the flatter gamma shift when batch transcoding in Catalyst Browse problem doesn't affect me. I haven't tested to see if EditReady avoids that issue or not.

I just shot a family thing (swim meet) and the combination of custom PPs, Paul A.'s color correction settings, Active Stabilzation, and Clear Image zoom gave really tremendous quality. At $2300, I consider this a medium term camera until I see what comes out in the next year or so. If they fix/add a couple of things and if the 4K is a step up from the AX100 - I'll be even more pleased with it.

Atticus Lake · February 21st, 2015, 05:06 PM

Quote:

... And it sounds like Atticus's script that just rewraps wouldn't help on a Mac.

Ahh, shame. Still, if anyone with a mac wants to give it a shot, some re-wrapped clips are available from the link on that test.

Sony PXW-X70 Tests: Cliffs on Vimeo

Andy Wilkinson · February 22nd, 2015, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

I can't help but wonder what's happening at Sony that a camera that was released closing in on 5 months ago still doesn't have a plugin for FCPX or support in Vegas. Add to that the long (and possibly lengthening) time frame for the 4k upgrade.

Are they in more serious financial trouble than they're letting on?
Sorry for venting but I can't help but think theres a serious problem afoot.

I think Sony is probably going through a lot of internal turmoil at the moment whilst the top management try and turn it around into a profitable organisation again. Rumors about them abandoning the mobile (cell) phone market etc. probably means every division is being "assessed and re-organised/re-structured". I remember only to well when I worked in R&D for big corporates just what that feels like. Glad I left all that behind :-)

It also seems (at least to me) that some of their recent camera launches have been really rather rushed to market. When the FS7 came out I remember many complaining about the firmware seeming to be "beta" or "work in progress" (and I believe to an extent it still is) and certainly some simple design/hardware mistakes seem to have been made - despite all this I can see why it appeals to many.

I think that's probably what happened with the PXW-X70 too - rushed to market just to get some sales/cash-flow and then "we will sort out the 4K bit later". I'm really hoping Sony will announce details about the PXW-X70 4K firmware update at BVE in London next week...I'll be there to ask them in person too...but even if they don't, I do hope Sony get their act together and release this much anticipated update very soon.

Then I can decide it I'm going to dip my toe in the 4K world by buying it, or save my money a while longer (maybe even for a C300 MkII) since I've decided any future camera purchases now need to be 4K - I'm definitely not buying any 1080p only cams any more, especially now I have a high spec new Mac Pro capable of dealing with 4K sitting next to me.

David Dixon · February 22nd, 2015, 11:40 AM

Andy - could not agree more. I could have afforded to get a C100 mk2 (already have Canon glass) and almost did. But for a serious amateur like me that is a huge investment and I would need to get 4 years or so out of the camera. I just couldn't see putting $5.5k into a camera that I will still be using in 2019 but will never have 4K. I hope you can glean more info in person next week!

Craig Seeman · March 29th, 2015, 10:17 AM

March is nearly done. From the last Sony rep post I saw elsewhere, they are waiting for Apple. My guess is there may be a ProApps codec update along with the next FCPX update. One may well wonder why it's taken so long.

Additionally the 4k paid update (apx. $500) will be available in June and will only be 4:2:0 60mbps (less than their top consumer camera) which I believe will be XAVC-S (not L though) 4:2:0 100mbps.

There's much to like about the camera but I must say that I'm a bit gun shy of Sony's support for it.

Paul Hardy · March 29th, 2015, 10:21 AM

As many people as possible need to tell apple that this needs sorting out asap....

Apple - Feedback

They do listen !!!!

Ricky Sharp · March 29th, 2015, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Hardy

As many people as possible need to tell apple that this needs sorting out asap....

Apple - Feedback

They do listen !!!!

I took a slightly different route since I have an Apple developer account. So filed a bug. If the bug gets answered and doesn't contain any material under NDA, I'll post here.

In my report, I outlined how Apple's and Sony's documentation generally says XAVC support and doesn't provide any specifics as to what flavors would be ommitted. Thus my chief complaint in the report was that importing XAVC Long GOP should actually work.

I referenced these links in my report:

Apple XAVC Support
Sony XAVC Plugin

Edit: Also just provided feedback to Sony (there's a 'Let us Know' link at the bottom of the Sony XAVC Plugin link above). I cross-referenced by Apple Bug report in that feedback.

Craig Seeman · March 29th, 2015, 12:19 PM

From my understanding support XAVC-L is a done deal. Apple's and not Sony are in control of the release date. I'd bet it'll be in the next FCPX / ProApps Codecs update. I'm disappointed that it's taking this long though. I can't imagine XAVC-L support was that much more difficult than XAVC-S support. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a licensing issue rather than any bugs in the decoding.

David Dixon · March 29th, 2015, 12:34 PM

On fcp.co a frequent, reliable contributor has hinted there will be a solution very soon, which I'm hoping means NAB will bring a new FCPX, or at least a Pro Codecs update that fixes this.

John Nantz · March 29th, 2015, 01:44 PM

Ricky -

I've got a question, taking off from what you said about submitting a bug:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricky Sharp

I took a slightly different route since I have an Apple developer account. So filed a bug. If the bug gets answered and doesn't contain any material under NDA, I'll post here.
........

With regard to Stabilization in FCPX, one thing I'd like to see (and I've mentioned this before to the FCPX people I've talked to) is a way to select a piece of a clip, say, with a square (kinda like a face recognition square), and tell X to use that area for stabilization purposes?

One example where this would have worked really well for me was with a video taken from a sailboat of a buoy and there was land in the background. The buoy that was in the foreground was swinging around due to the waves and stabilization made jello out of everything. If a piece of the land could be selected and have stabilization put it's effort into into stabilizing things relative to that it would, or should, make for a less jello video.

Unfortunately, it's probably not possible to present this in the context of a bug, ergo, less attention for a problem that could use a solution.

Ricky Sharp · March 29th, 2015, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Nantz

Unfortunately, it's probably not possible to present this in the context of a bug, ergo, less attention for a problem that could use a solution.

I would suggest filing this an enhancement/feature request using the link Paul Hardy provided.

In terms of XAVC-L, there is minimally a bug due to the documentation being out-of-sync with the software.

In Apple's and Sony's documentation, no limitations are cited as to XAVC-L not working. Both simply mention the generic term XAVC. So one would imply that all its flavors (XAVC-I, L, S) would be supported.

So this could be a bug with the docs in that they should detail specifically what is and what is not supported. Or, the docs are actually accurate and the bug is in the software (i.e. software doesn't live up to the documentation).

Craig Seeman · March 30th, 2015, 09:21 PM

Talk about confusing, is PDZK-LT2 Version 1.2 the one we've been waiting for?

Sony Pro site lists XAVC/XDCAM Plug-in for Apple (PDZK-LT2) MAC Version 1.0
Sony | Micro Site XDCAM...

But Sony Creative Site shows XAVC/XDCAM Plug-in for Apple (PDZK-LT2) MAC Version 1.1 and 1.2
Sony Creative Software - XAVC/XDCAM Plug-in for Apple (PDZK-LT2)

So is the latter an update and does it support XAVC-L in FCPX?
Why do the two sites differ?

David Dixon · March 30th, 2015, 09:39 PM

I think that is dated a year ago, and only works with XAVC-S, not L

I've read strong hints over at fcp.co that we will see a solution for this very soon, and it may come in the form of an FCPX update (or a pro codecs update) rather than a Sony plugin.

Craig Seeman · March 31st, 2015, 08:30 AM

Although it's truly odd that two different Sony sites have different versions of the plugin.

Paul Anderegg · March 31st, 2015, 09:53 AM

Does that plug-in work for XAVC Intra on FCP X? I accidentally recorded something in XAVC Intra and cannot get FCP X to import or even see it even after installing the LTZ whatever Sony plug-in. :(

Paul

February 21st, 2015, 04:49 PM	#31
David Dixon Major Player Join Date: May 2011 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 495	Re: Any word on XAVC-L plugin for FCP X? I heard back from EditReady...they have a blog post explaining their work: EditReady supports XAVC-L (PXW-X70, PXW-FS7) on the Mac ...but in an email to me it was explained that Apple's underlying video framework does not support XAVC-L. The way they got EditReady to do transcoding was to not rely on Apple's framework (they called it QuickTime, but isn't it technically AV Foundation now?). They created "a new H.264 decoder, thanks to the open source FFmpeg project." There were other difficulties as well - see the link above. But this solution transcodes to ProRes (and quite a few codecs as well). And of course the software has several other features beyond just transcoding. But, since all the Passthrough feature does is rewrap, the rewrapped files are still not recognized by QuickTime or FCPX. So to get this to work may take a plugin, or Sony may be working with Apple to incorporate the import in a future FCPX update, or it may be handled by another Pro Codecs update. And it sounds like Atticus's script that just rewraps wouldn't help on a Mac. But I'm told that Premiere Pro CC will do the import, so that has to be due to something Adobe is doing rather than Sony or Apple. All that being said, I'm really enjoying the camera. I can live with the transcoding, and I have never tested the AVCHD so I have no opinion on the AVCHD vs. 10 bit XAVC issue. I shoot pretty flat in-camera and grade in FCPX so the flatter gamma shift when batch transcoding in Catalyst Browse problem doesn't affect me. I haven't tested to see if EditReady avoids that issue or not. I just shot a family thing (swim meet) and the combination of custom PPs, Paul A.'s color correction settings, Active Stabilzation, and Clear Image zoom gave really tremendous quality. At $2300, I consider this a medium term camera until I see what comes out in the next year or so. If they fix/add a couple of things and if the 4K is a step up from the AX100 - I'll be even more pleased with it.

February 22nd, 2015, 11:40 AM	#34
David Dixon Major Player Join Date: May 2011 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 495	Re: Any word on XAVC-L plugin for FCP X? Andy - could not agree more. I could have afforded to get a C100 mk2 (already have Canon glass) and almost did. But for a serious amateur like me that is a huge investment and I would need to get 4 years or so out of the camera. I just couldn't see putting $5.5k into a camera that I will still be using in 2019 but will never have 4K. I hope you can glean more info in person next week!

March 29th, 2015, 10:17 AM	#35
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Re: Any word on XAVC-L plugin for FCP X? March is nearly done. From the last Sony rep post I saw elsewhere, they are waiting for Apple. My guess is there may be a ProApps codec update along with the next FCPX update. One may well wonder why it's taken so long. Additionally the 4k paid update (apx. $500) will be available in June and will only be 4:2:0 60mbps (less than their top consumer camera) which I believe will be XAVC-S (not L though) 4:2:0 100mbps. There's much to like about the camera but I must say that I'm a bit gun shy of Sony's support for it.

March 29th, 2015, 10:21 AM	#36
Paul Hardy Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Lincoln, UK Posts: 99	Re: Any word on XAVC-L plugin for FCP X? As many people as possible need to tell apple that this needs sorting out asap.... Apple - Feedback They do listen !!!!

March 29th, 2015, 12:19 PM	#38
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Re: Any word on XAVC-L plugin for FCP X? From my understanding support XAVC-L is a done deal. Apple's and not Sony are in control of the release date. I'd bet it'll be in the next FCPX / ProApps Codecs update. I'm disappointed that it's taking this long though. I can't imagine XAVC-L support was that much more difficult than XAVC-S support. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a licensing issue rather than any bugs in the decoding.

March 29th, 2015, 12:34 PM	#39
David Dixon Major Player Join Date: May 2011 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 495	Re: Any word on XAVC-L plugin for FCP X? On fcp.co a frequent, reliable contributor has hinted there will be a solution very soon, which I'm hoping means NAB will bring a new FCPX, or at least a Pro Codecs update that fixes this.

March 30th, 2015, 09:21 PM	#42
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Re: Any word on XAVC-L plugin for FCP X? Talk about confusing, is PDZK-LT2 Version 1.2 the one we've been waiting for? Sony Pro site lists XAVC/XDCAM Plug-in for Apple (PDZK-LT2) MAC Version 1.0 Sony \| Micro Site XDCAM... But Sony Creative Site shows XAVC/XDCAM Plug-in for Apple (PDZK-LT2) MAC Version 1.1 and 1.2 Sony Creative Software - XAVC/XDCAM Plug-in for Apple (PDZK-LT2) So is the latter an update and does it support XAVC-L in FCPX? Why do the two sites differ?

March 30th, 2015, 09:39 PM	#43
David Dixon Major Player Join Date: May 2011 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 495	Re: Any word on XAVC-L plugin for FCP X? I think that is dated a year ago, and only works with XAVC-S, not L I've read strong hints over at fcp.co that we will see a solution for this very soon, and it may come in the form of an FCPX update (or a pro codecs update) rather than a Sony plugin.

March 31st, 2015, 08:30 AM	#44
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Re: Any word on XAVC-L plugin for FCP X? Although it's truly odd that two different Sony sites have different versions of the plugin.

March 31st, 2015, 09:53 AM	#45
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Any word on XAVC-L plugin for FCP X? Does that plug-in work for XAVC Intra on FCP X? I accidentally recorded something in XAVC Intra and cannot get FCP X to import or even see it even after installing the LTZ whatever Sony plug-in. :( Paul