Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100

Christopher Young · January 15th, 2015, 04:28 AM

Out of curiosity I tried it with with my Samsung S4. I got it to hook up and had access to stop start, zoom, iris etc and then it dropped out. Tried again and had full connection strength again then a few seconds later it would say disconnected slow connection or something to that effect. A few moments later it would show a full strength connection... and then it would drop out again. Gave up after half a dozen goes at it. Totally useless with my S4. Not that I see much use for it. It was a bit laggy when it did connect. Others may have better luck. If they do would be interested to hear their experiences.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Andrew Smith · January 15th, 2015, 07:35 AM

Have you tried with a device that has "Sony" written on it? :-P

Andrew

Christopher Young · January 15th, 2015, 08:06 AM

No actually I haven't. Now who do I know who has one?

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Ron Evans · January 15th, 2015, 03:48 PM

I had a X70 demo for a day and tried with my Xperia T cell phone and it worked just fine. Did not run for a long time as I was only checking what worked. Seemed to operate in much the same way it does with my Sony Action camera HDR-AS30V

Ron Evans

Christopher Young · January 15th, 2015, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Griffiths

Chris, do you know if there is , or will be, a Mac version?

Not for a while. This is what Acrovid have said. 4-5 mths most likely.

I then asked the question if someone purchased the Windows version can they then transfer the licence to the Mac version when it comes out. The answer was an emphatic "Yes." If you buy a Windows version you just have to email them and register for the Mac version. David's exact quote was:

"... we can offer a free license transfer to the mac version for the Windows version purchasers before it is available, just email me after purchasing and I will add the customer to the database with the free license transfer rights."

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

David Dixon · January 16th, 2015, 10:33 PM

My goal is a flatter image for adjustment in post, and as I haven't seen anything about this online I thought I'd post some tests I finally got around to.

I'm doing the expected thing of raising blacks as much as possible, desaturating, etc., but kept running into interesting results with a flatter Knee. I've found that using the lowest setting for both Point and Slope causes what I would call posterization of highlights. Subtle variation is lost and at times there is even an odd color shift. I found this to be worse using Cinematone1 than with ITU709, maybe because Cine1 already has some flattening of its gamma curve built in.

So, in this video I'm trying to find settings I like. I limited my testing to Cine1 and ITU709, because this is a very contrasty camera and the other options just couldn't get the grayish blacks I was looking for in-camera. I did use Paul Anderegg's color correction settings posted here, including the latest update. However, I did a white balance for the Cine1 tests and forgot to re-balance for ITU709. So, don't consider this a color test. I did include a couple of plastic bottles that had a round highlight reflection of the light fixture above, and there you can easily see the highlight crunching that happens if you get too extreme with settings.

Which do I like? I'm still deciding. ITU709 seems capable of a slightly flatter look, but Cine1 does seem to have a little more subtlety after grading.

Paul Anderegg · January 19th, 2015, 06:35 AM

David, could you recommend what you think would work best for keeping faces from blowing out at night while still keeping some detail in the dark areas? I shoot everything at night, and as you know faces are the first thing to go. The camera will produce luminance on a histogram all the way to 108 or so, but I found anything going past my 95IRE zebra is just a puddle of cartoon color, total lack of any discernable detail. I am currently using Christophers knee settings. I have played around with underexposing and bringing up the mids or highlights in post, but all this seems to do is increase noise dramatically. I've turned to shooting SOT's at 27-30db with my LED dimmed down. The background gets brighter, and the soft diffused light tends to flatten the highlights, best I can do at the moment. For those times that isn't an option, I would love to get a peck of zebra on the nose or forehead without loosing all the under 95 stuff on a face.

Paul

David Dixon · January 19th, 2015, 08:39 AM

Paul,
I think we've learned now that the Knee settings on this camera require great care, and underexposure is not our friend. We simply can't use truly low Point *and* Slope in combination, and even a 10-bit codec doesn't allow much exposure raising in post.

But I don't shoot for a finished look. For the flat looks in that video I aimed to get the mid-range pretty close using the Histogram, but the highlights topped out (as seen later in FCPX) at about 82-85 IRE and the blacks were about 10-13. Putting those at 100 and 0 or wherever I want them later takes only a few seconds and doesn't add noise IMO. So far I can't decide whether I like low Point and medium Slope or low slope and medium Point better.

But for a finished look in-camera at night in a contrasty setting, which I hasten to add I have not tested, I think you're right to maintain the highlights first. I'd set up a test - start with Point at 92.5 and Slope at 0, then experiment with lowering each of them a few steps (but not both of them) to see at what level you can get the highs to ramp like you want. Luckily, you can make all these changes while shooting for later study, and the blacks are super flexible. They can be adjusted once you see where they stand when the highs are bright but controlled.

For what it's worth, in the video, for both Cine1 and 709 a medium slope and low point seem to retain a bit more sparkle in the highs than with a low slope and medium point. Is a medium slope less steep, thus retaining more gradations? I'm just guessing here, please do not mistake me for someone who really knows what he's talking about :-)

Andy Wilkinson · January 19th, 2015, 01:49 PM

Just seen this quick test clip that was posted today by an owner, currently filming in India.

Some VERY nice clips in this (and sure, one or two where highlights are a bit blown out). But bearing in mind the price of this cam, I think it's pretty impressive for grab and go footage. And we've yet to see what 4K "flavours"/bit rate of XAVC Sony bless the PXW-X70 with this March - when the new firmware is supposed to come out. Take a look and see what you think.

Mike McKay · January 19th, 2015, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Wilkinson

Just seen this quick test clip that was posted today by an owner, currently filming in India.

I like it! You do have to be careful with the exposure on this cam, even with the tweaked black gamma, knee, slope settings etc.

Paul Anderegg · January 19th, 2015, 08:50 PM

My X70 requires me to rethink how I shoot highlights. On my JVC HM790 at work, my standard practice is to set zebra to 100IRE, then allow a bit of zebra to pop up, then run a broadcast safe filter in FCP X. That camera will still have highlight detail way above 100IRE, and the broadcast safe filter basically acts like an NLE knee and curves the 100-108IRE down to 100IRE so it doesn't clip when it goes to air. It was a bit of a surprise to me to see the X70 produce the same 108IRE levels on the histogram, yet it is unable to resolve any detail above 95IRE. Yikes, wake up call!

I am guessing I don't need to apply a broadcast safe filter to X70 footage, as the highlight clipping in camera is well above where it would clip on air?

Paul

Tom Grushka · January 20th, 2015, 04:12 AM

Paul, this is what I was trying to articulate, re: highlight concerns, in the other thread, but you've done it so well, and put numbers to it! And since I haven't bought the cam YET (Sony!) ... Thank you.

Sony, are you paying attention? This highlight thing might discourage buyers. Even consumer cams with small sensors have had smoother highlights for years and years. Like my uncle Jim's old Toshiba SK-F200 VHS camcorder that I carried around on my shoulder as a scrawny 12-year-old back in 1992. Yes, it was VHS, but it had smoother highlights than the X70!

(Nostalgia moment.)

Look forward to learning what you guys find out about squeezing more detail out of the highlights ... is it possible?

Meanwhile, can we push Sony for a firmware fix, or is this problem physically inherent in the sensor or AD converter? Surely there is some curve somewhere that could be adjusted in the firmware to get detail all the way up to 100IRE at least.

Paul Anderegg · January 20th, 2015, 04:24 AM

I just shot some SOT's at a police pursuit scene a few minutes ago, using Christopher's knee settings, as well as a 90IRE zebra to ensure i don't blow anything out. Looks pretty good, as long as you recognize the cameras 95IRE clip level. I intentionally left the opening of the SOT in to show how much or how little it takes to blow out details.

Paul Anderegg · January 20th, 2015, 04:30 AM

As a side note, I keep the facial recognition on, and whenever I see the orange box, I turn off the A/F to lock the sucker. You can actually see the detail come and go from the faces in the SOT's as I toggle A/F on and off, it is dramatically apparent, almost looks like a severe bitrate reduction when the orange box pops up! Seriously, watch the wrinkle on the guys head VANISH as the A/F finds lock!

Tom Grushka · January 20th, 2015, 04:41 AM

Sheesh. Wow! Thanks, Paul, again!

Interesting about the face detection. Saw this concern somewhere else as well.

Looking forward to seeing your new settings on some more bright scenes with flashing lights, etc. Or, are those so bright that keeping them around 95IRE would make everything else go black?

January 15th, 2015, 04:28 AM	#586
Christopher Young Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,567	Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100 Out of curiosity I tried it with with my Samsung S4. I got it to hook up and had access to stop start, zoom, iris etc and then it dropped out. Tried again and had full connection strength again then a few seconds later it would say disconnected slow connection or something to that effect. A few moments later it would show a full strength connection... and then it would drop out again. Gave up after half a dozen goes at it. Totally useless with my S4. Not that I see much use for it. It was a bit laggy when it did connect. Others may have better luck. If they do would be interested to hear their experiences. Chris Young CYV Productions Sydney

January 15th, 2015, 07:35 AM	#587
Andrew Smith Equal Opportunity Offender Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,065	Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100 Have you tried with a device that has "Sony" written on it? :-P Andrew

January 15th, 2015, 08:06 AM	#588
Christopher Young Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,567	Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100 No actually I haven't. Now who do I know who has one? Chris Young CYV Productions Sydney

January 15th, 2015, 03:48 PM	#589
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100 I had a X70 demo for a day and tried with my Xperia T cell phone and it worked just fine. Did not run for a long time as I was only checking what worked. Seemed to operate in much the same way it does with my Sony Action camera HDR-AS30V Ron Evans

January 16th, 2015, 10:33 PM	#591
David Dixon Major Player Join Date: May 2011 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 495	Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100 My goal is a flatter image for adjustment in post, and as I haven't seen anything about this online I thought I'd post some tests I finally got around to. I'm doing the expected thing of raising blacks as much as possible, desaturating, etc., but kept running into interesting results with a flatter Knee. I've found that using the lowest setting for both Point and Slope causes what I would call posterization of highlights. Subtle variation is lost and at times there is even an odd color shift. I found this to be worse using Cinematone1 than with ITU709, maybe because Cine1 already has some flattening of its gamma curve built in. So, in this video I'm trying to find settings I like. I limited my testing to Cine1 and ITU709, because this is a very contrasty camera and the other options just couldn't get the grayish blacks I was looking for in-camera. I did use Paul Anderegg's color correction settings posted here, including the latest update. However, I did a white balance for the Cine1 tests and forgot to re-balance for ITU709. So, don't consider this a color test. I did include a couple of plastic bottles that had a round highlight reflection of the light fixture above, and there you can easily see the highlight crunching that happens if you get too extreme with settings. Which do I like? I'm still deciding. ITU709 seems capable of a slightly flatter look, but Cine1 does seem to have a little more subtlety after grading. Sony X70 Flat Settings on Vimeo

January 19th, 2015, 06:35 AM	#592
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100 David, could you recommend what you think would work best for keeping faces from blowing out at night while still keeping some detail in the dark areas? I shoot everything at night, and as you know faces are the first thing to go. The camera will produce luminance on a histogram all the way to 108 or so, but I found anything going past my 95IRE zebra is just a puddle of cartoon color, total lack of any discernable detail. I am currently using Christophers knee settings. I have played around with underexposing and bringing up the mids or highlights in post, but all this seems to do is increase noise dramatically. I've turned to shooting SOT's at 27-30db with my LED dimmed down. The background gets brighter, and the soft diffused light tends to flatten the highlights, best I can do at the moment. For those times that isn't an option, I would love to get a peck of zebra on the nose or forehead without loosing all the under 95 stuff on a face. Paul

January 19th, 2015, 08:39 AM	#593
David Dixon Major Player Join Date: May 2011 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 495	Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100 Paul, I think we've learned now that the Knee settings on this camera require great care, and underexposure is not our friend. We simply can't use truly low Point and Slope in combination, and even a 10-bit codec doesn't allow much exposure raising in post. But I don't shoot for a finished look. For the flat looks in that video I aimed to get the mid-range pretty close using the Histogram, but the highlights topped out (as seen later in FCPX) at about 82-85 IRE and the blacks were about 10-13. Putting those at 100 and 0 or wherever I want them later takes only a few seconds and doesn't add noise IMO. So far I can't decide whether I like low Point and medium Slope or low slope and medium Point better. But for a finished look in-camera at night in a contrasty setting, which I hasten to add I have not tested, I think you're right to maintain the highlights first. I'd set up a test - start with Point at 92.5 and Slope at 0, then experiment with lowering each of them a few steps (but not both of them) to see at what level you can get the highs to ramp like you want. Luckily, you can make all these changes while shooting for later study, and the blacks are super flexible. They can be adjusted once you see where they stand when the highs are bright but controlled. For what it's worth, in the video, for both Cine1 and 709 a medium slope and low point seem to retain a bit more sparkle in the highs than with a low slope and medium point. Is a medium slope less steep, thus retaining more gradations? I'm just guessing here, please do not mistake me for someone who really knows what he's talking about :-)

January 19th, 2015, 01:49 PM	#594
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100 Just seen this quick test clip that was posted today by an owner, currently filming in India. Some VERY nice clips in this (and sure, one or two where highlights are a bit blown out). But bearing in mind the price of this cam, I think it's pretty impressive for grab and go footage. And we've yet to see what 4K "flavours"/bit rate of XAVC Sony bless the PXW-X70 with this March - when the new firmware is supposed to come out. Take a look and see what you think. Quick SONY PXW-X70 test in Chandigarh, India on Vimeo __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

January 19th, 2015, 08:50 PM	#596
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100 My X70 requires me to rethink how I shoot highlights. On my JVC HM790 at work, my standard practice is to set zebra to 100IRE, then allow a bit of zebra to pop up, then run a broadcast safe filter in FCP X. That camera will still have highlight detail way above 100IRE, and the broadcast safe filter basically acts like an NLE knee and curves the 100-108IRE down to 100IRE so it doesn't clip when it goes to air. It was a bit of a surprise to me to see the X70 produce the same 108IRE levels on the histogram, yet it is unable to resolve any detail above 95IRE. Yikes, wake up call! I am guessing I don't need to apply a broadcast safe filter to X70 footage, as the highlight clipping in camera is well above where it would clip on air? Paul

January 20th, 2015, 04:12 AM	#597
Tom Grushka Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 55	Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100 Paul, this is what I was trying to articulate, re: highlight concerns, in the other thread, but you've done it so well, and put numbers to it! And since I haven't bought the cam YET (Sony!) ... Thank you. Sony, are you paying attention? This highlight thing might discourage buyers. Even consumer cams with small sensors have had smoother highlights for years and years. Like my uncle Jim's old Toshiba SK-F200 VHS camcorder that I carried around on my shoulder as a scrawny 12-year-old back in 1992. Yes, it was VHS, but it had smoother highlights than the X70! (Nostalgia moment.) Look forward to learning what you guys find out about squeezing more detail out of the highlights ... is it possible? Meanwhile, can we push Sony for a firmware fix, or is this problem physically inherent in the sensor or AD converter? Surely there is some curve somewhere that could be adjusted in the firmware to get detail all the way up to 100IRE at least.

January 20th, 2015, 04:24 AM	#598
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100 I just shot some SOT's at a police pursuit scene a few minutes ago, using Christopher's knee settings, as well as a 90IRE zebra to ensure i don't blow anything out. Looks pretty good, as long as you recognize the cameras 95IRE clip level. I intentionally left the opening of the SOT in to show how much or how little it takes to blow out details. YouTube (Short URL)

January 20th, 2015, 04:30 AM	#599
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100 As a side note, I keep the facial recognition on, and whenever I see the orange box, I turn off the A/F to lock the sucker. You can actually see the detail come and go from the faces in the SOT's as I toggle A/F on and off, it is dramatically apparent, almost looks like a severe bitrate reduction when the orange box pops up! Seriously, watch the wrinkle on the guys head VANISH as the A/F finds lock!

January 20th, 2015, 04:41 AM	#600
Tom Grushka Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 55	Re: Sony PXW-X70 announced: Pro XDCAM version of AX100 Sheesh. Wow! Thanks, Paul, again! Interesting about the face detection. Saw this concern somewhere else as well. Looking forward to seeing your new settings on some more bright scenes with flashing lights, etc. Or, are those so bright that keeping them around 95IRE would make everything else go black?