Sony FDR-AX100

[Ken Ross]

@ Dave:

Dave, can you describe your 'Samsung'? Not sure if you're talking about an HDTV or monitor?

I have a Samsung HDTV (64" F8500 plasma) which has been professionally ISF'd. It's very tough to see any AX100 artifacts in my down-rez'd 4K>HD projects and when you do, they're very minor and less than what I'd see with any HD camera I've ever used...especially DSLRs. This is the HDTV I implement the frame rate doubler so that even 30p motion is quite smooth...almost '60p like'. I use the PS3 as my 'player' via a memory card reader that holds the memory card with my project file. The PS3 is connected to the Samsung HDTV via HDMI.

My biggest issue with the above setup is forgetting to disable the frame rate doubler after watching my projects. If we then watch some show on broadcast TV, we get the soap opera effect that is created by the frame doubling. Of course it takes just a few seconds to disable it.

But yes, it is never a good idea to add additional sharpness to an already resolute, sharp video. That's just asking for trouble and any ISF tech would say "NO NO NO" to that approach with any material you watch from any source. Most of these guys are very conservative with their sharpness adjustments.

Now my Samsung 28" 4K monitor, when displaying the AX100 4K video, again looks artifact free, but due to the 30p refresh rate, it's best to avoid fast motion close to the camera. As for artifacts, it's a very rare clip that I can see anything approaching an artifact that hits the threshold of "I can see it without searching for it". Just a non-issue on this setup.

As for playing back AX100 files, personally I'd never use Sony Play Memories as my player. In Widows 8.1, WMP is a far better player. I never said that in Windows 7. VLC is another very good player, but I find WMP to be the best in the new Windows environment.

So the bottom line is that in the vast majority of cases, artifacts are due to something other than the camera. We can create a very extensive list of things other than the camera that can create artifacts. And most of us know this is true for ANY camera, regardless of format.

I just see very little in terms of 4K 'exclusive' artifacts, that don't already exist in other formats and resolutions if one is not careful. I said that before and I'm sticking to it. :)

[Ron Evans]

For NTSC 30P is really 29.97fps ( and so is 60i as timecode is the same though temporal motion is the same as 60P ) and 60P is 59.94fps clearly stated in the Sony information. For PAL it is 25P and 50P. Most NA TV's will refresh at 60Hz or a multiple so will repeat a 30P input ( unless of course it is limited to 30Hz as are some of the lower cost 4K sets/monitors ) However NLE timelines need to be setup correctly or the NLE will try and correct !!!

NTSC AX100 at 3840x2160 is 29.97P and for PAL it is 25P . You really must learn to read Adriano as it is in the AX100 manual.

Ron Evans.

[Ron Evans]

Shutter speeds will also be critical for clean images too. It would be useful if posters would state shutter speed when discussing artifacts etc.

Ron Evans

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Adriano Moroni

Do you think also my PAL AX100 records 29.97fps. I have PAL system and on my manual I don't see that number of fps.
If you use Edius can you tell me what do I have to modify on my presets?
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ttings%202.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ning/1%20a.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...eening/1ac.jpg
May be are they not good presets?
Thanks

I would not set this up as an HD project. I would always set this up as a 4K project and output the final project to HD for better results. I would also use 'Super Fine' in your settings.

I've done exactly this and the results on my HDTV can only be described as 'superb'. We have the same camera, the same software and I'm getting drastically different results. You need to do more research and read. So many of your questions are in the literature and you seem to have a habit of refusing to read the material that would answer so many of your questions. As I stated before, I would start with a 4K project, edit the project and output as HD.

I just can't add any more to your questions. You MUST do some digging in to your own system. We can't do that for you. Your TV may be at the heart of these issues too. You can't expect old equipment to keep displaying state-of-the-art results.

[Ron Evans]

Ken, currently if you need to use Lanczos3 for high quality scaling output one needs to use Layouter since the default output scaling from a 4k timeline in Edius does not use Lanczos3. That is why the preferred way at the moment is to use a 1920x1080 project so that Layouter , with Lanczos3 does the scaling in the timeline. It is a known issue . If the intent is to create a Bluray or DVD this is the best way anyway. For a true 3840x2160 project this is of course not an issue as there is no scaling involved.

So if Adriano wants to output a 1920x1080 file it is best to start with a 1920x1080 project and let layouter do the scaling. One could of course export a HQX file from a 3840x2160 project and get TMPGenc with Lanczos3 to do the encode and scaling.

Edius 7 is my main editor too.


Ron Evans

[Adriano Moroni]

In my previous post I have made a mistake about 3° link that I have just rectify:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...20Settings.jpg
Therefore now I but also you understand my presets are all right. My problem was my old HDTV.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

Ken, currently if you need to use Lanczos3 for high quality scaling output one needs to use Layouter since the default output scaling from a 4k timeline in Edius does not use Lanczos3. That is why the preferred way at the moment is to use a 1920x1080 project so that Layouter , with Lanczos3 does the scaling in the timeline. It is a known issue . If the intent is to create a Bluray or DVD this is the best way anyway. For a true 3840x2160 project this is of course not an issue as there is no scaling involved.

So if Adriano wants to output a 1920x1080 file it is best to start with a 1920x1080 project and let layouter do the scaling. One could of course export a HQX file from a 3840x2160 project and get TMPGenc with Lanczos3 to do the encode and scaling.

Edius 7 is my main editor too.


Ron Evans

Ron, if not using Lanczos3, I've gotten sharper results with the project in 4K and output as an HD file as opposed to creating the project in HD.

Have you tried that if you don't need Layouter? I try not to use it in any case if I can since, depending on what you're doing with it, you'll lose some resolution. Obviously there are times when it's unavoidable.

[Ron Evans]

All my projects are multicam with NX5U , NX30U and CX700 so by default the AX1 files go into this project. I am told however that currently exporting a 1920x1080 file from a 3840x2160 project will not use the Lanczos3 High Quality scaler which I always use for the best performance. However layouter does use this scaler so the best current performance to get a 1920x1080 file from a 3840x2160 file is to place in a 1920x1080 project so that the layouter can be used to scale in its track rather than the export scaler. At least until there is an update to correct the issue. The standard scaler , if you haven't changed it , is "fast and sharp".

Ron Evans

[Ron Evans]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

Ron, if not using Lanczos3, I've gotten sharper results with the project in 4K and output as an HD file as opposed to creating the project in HD.

Have you tried that if you don't need Layouter? I try not to use it in any case if I can since, depending on what you're doing with it, you'll lose some resolution. Obviously there are times when it's unavoidable.

Layouter is active all the time unless you disable it in properties for each clip. If you place a file of different dimensions than the project in a track layouter automatically scales to the project size. No action needed and it will do this using the scaler chosen in the layouter setup. There is no difference in scaling this way than scaling on export. Scaling is scaling and the quality is governed by the scaler used. And at the moment one can choose a better scaler in layouter than on export. This is independent of the encoder chosen for export. My point in going to the AX1 was to crop to 1920x1080 anyway and as long as the crop is still greater than 1920x1080 pixels from the original 3840x2160 I find it is still a very good HD image when matched with the NX5U or NX30U which is the whole point for me and thus makes a good Bluray or DVD with further scaling and encoding. Cropping allows me to set the AX1 as a full stage fixed camera, set wider than the stage to allow people to walk up the stairs etc but still allow crop into the stage most of the time. Works great.

The only way to loose resolution in layouter is if you are using a low quality scaler or are zooming in and interpolation is needed. I always use Lanczos3 high quality and never crop in close to the actual pixel sizes of the project ( 1920x1080 for the AX1 files on the 1920x1080 60i project )

Ron Evans

[Dave Blackhurst]

Adriano - you've already got your answer on framerates, you should have an EU PAL camera, with 25 (actually 24.97?) framerate instead of the US/NTSC 30 (actually 29.97). This is pretty fundamental stuff, and the lack of knowledge is a strong indicator that the problem lies elsewhere than the camera!!

@Ken - I have a dual setup, primary is the bargain basement Seiki 39" 30Hz TV connected via HDMI - the stock settings were INCREDIBLY "off"... current ones are "acceptable", after adjusting... I played with the "sharpness" control just to see what would happen, and sure enough, the details in the grass made all that area "flash" pretty garishly! I already KNEW it looked fine with sharpness on 0, so this was an "exercise", but had I not already tweaked the settings extensively, it would have been shocking! Might have thought there was something "wrong" with "something"... or something....

Secondary is a basic 21-22"Samsung monitor, nothing fancy, it is full HD, on the DVI-I, supposedly at 59Hz. I had just enough room on the desk for it!

Even though both are "calibrated", they don't look identical... both look GOOD, but sure aren't "matched".... I may spend some time trying to get closer... but for the moment, "good enough!"

Agreed that PMH is far from ideal, but didn't feel like dragging everything into Vegas or Media Player. Soon enough...

As I said, I figured I could find ways to "muck up" the output, it's a talent... but I ALSO was able to get EXCELLENT results, same footage and some tweaking. I shot the clips for the express reason of checking both the temporal motion issue, and comparing the 4K to the 1080p options.

I DO "see" the 30p, but it's NOT "artifacts" in the images, but rather in the motion in the series of images. What I had on the primary screen was quite acceptable even if one is picky, the AX100 viewfinder and secondary monitor exhibit more stutter/judder. Slow, careful camera movements are definitely going to be needed for best results.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

All my projects are multicam with NX5U , NX30U and CX700 so by default the AX1 files go into this project. I am told however that currently exporting a 1920x1080 file from a 3840x2160 project will not use the Lanczos3 High Quality scaler which I always use for the best performance. However layouter does use this scaler so the best current performance to get a 1920x1080 file from a 3840x2160 file is to place in a 1920x1080 project so that the layouter can be used to scale in its track rather than the export scaler. At least until there is an update to correct the issue. The standard scaler , if you haven't changed it , is "fast and sharp".

Ron Evans

Ron, I'll do an A/B over the next couple of days to compare both methods. It's hard to believe the HD quality could get much better given what I've seen from exporting to HD. I'll let you know.

But the problem here would be that I'd generally want my project archived in 4K and I'd export in HD only when needed. To create the project in HD would mean I'd have to later redo the entire project in 4K.

Unless I'm missing something, this is not very elegant.

[Dave Blackhurst]

Did a direct connect via HDMI to the Seiki, much smoother... at all settings, so definitely need to start "tuning" the computer. Made one mistake of dumping clips to a big but slow archive drive... moving to faster drive helped a lot, but might have to see about a newer faster drive and filling the other two RAM slots!

Fiddling in Vegas with settings, getting the feeling that the integrated video may not be quite up to the full task, but it's certainly usable for editing. Dealt with worse with HD!

I did a couple trial crops to 1080, still looked great, so I'm sure I can pan/scan/crop from a single camera and "fake" a typical multicam event shoot... that's nice... will pay for itself after selling a couple HD cams!

[Adriano Moroni]

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

Adriano - you've already got your answer on framerates, you should have an EU PAL camera, with 25 (actually 24.97?) framerate instead of the US/NTSC 30 (actually 29.97). This is pretty fundamental stuff, and the lack of knowledge is a strong indicator that the problem lies elsewhere than the camera!!

Dave,
you always keep telling me the same thing about my lack of knowledge. I understand you, you are right. But on my latest post I have just written only a confirmation about what you wrote, that is my Edius presets are good. My real problem is the old HDTV.

[Ron Evans]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

Ron, I'll do an A/B over the next couple of days to compare both methods. It's hard to believe the HD quality could get much better given what I've seen from exporting to HD. I'll let you know.

But the problem here would be that I'd generally want my project archived in 4K and I'd export in HD only when needed. To create the project in HD would mean I'd have to later redo the entire project in 4K.

Unless I'm missing something, this is not very elegant.

What format will you archive your 3840x2160 project? Edius does not do XAVC-S at the moment so it could be XAVC or HQX both large file sizes and both could be placed in a HD project as a file for HD output. Uses two steps but you will do that anyway. Once to archive and once to create a HD output. No editing needed just place archive file on a HD timeline and export. Export times will be the same the only extra time is opening a HD project and placing the archive file on the timeline, at most a couple of minutes. This way you have full control over the scaling and encoding.

So yes edit in 3840x2160 then put into a HD project to create a DVD or Bluray. Unfortunately Edius will not allow a 30P project to be changed to a 60i HD project like Vegas will do though scaling in Edius is better !!!

When you do your A/B take it all the way to a DVD or Bluray and watch on the TV. That is the real test.

Ron Evans

[Ken Ross]

Ron, actually the latest version of Edius does do XAVC-S.

But I've seen no difference between exports in XAVC-S and H264. Both look visually lossless.