Sony FDR-AX100

[Steve Mullen]

[QUOTE=Ken Ross;1839947[/QUOTE]

Every statement I posted was a quote from Slashcam.

"Doch im Moment sieht es danach aus, als ob Panasonic die meisten 4K-Herzen in dieser Preisklasse deutlich für sich gewinnen kann."

Translate and then please post so others see what they actually said. By the way, you even misquoted me.

Next time use Slashcam's or my actual words with quotes so we know you are willing to stand behind what you say. Your consistent misquoting reveals you are so threatened you are willing to lie -- over and over trying to convince others that Slashcam supports your conclusions.

Actually, there will be no "next time" for your posts.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Ken saying he didn't see aliasing had me go back at look at the artifacts. Most were around tiny details so they certainly seemed like aliasing. But, then I found crap around the big black lamp. No way this could be aliasing -- way too big an object. Moreover, it was blocky -- suggesting compression artifacts.

So I used Pavtube to convert one .mp4 clip to uncompressed 422. No artifacts! So it wasn't IN the .mp4 clips. But I still had no fix. :(

I'm very aware of artifacts and have always been bothered by them in various DSLRs I've owned as well as the NEX VG20 & VG30. There just aren't those artifacts in the AX100 videos. They are really amazingly clean.

So much can go wrong in encoding/transcoding with these different NLEs and quality can get away from us very fast. So it's wise not to point the finger at the camera before being sure.

My comments were accurate and I stand by them. Slashcam did NOT call the GH4 a better camera. They said it would have more appeal (their opinion) and it might be more cinematic since it isn't as sharp, but they did not say it was 'a better camera'.

I am not 'threatened' by Slashcam or you. In fact I think the review was fair and complimentary toward the AX100. You are again being silly. The camera speaks for itself and owners don't need to be convinced. However when someone talks about 'artifacts' with such a degree of certainty, only to find out later it was their error induced by the NLE, owners know the person has misspoken because they simply don't see what you saw.

[Dave Blackhurst]

I read the translated Slashcam, didn't see it as one way or the other - the AX100 is what it is, it produces some nice output that at least viewing on a 1080 screen doesn't have any major nastiness (I don't have a way to view at 4k).

That 720p YouTube video "proved" absolutely nothing, other than artifacts can happen, every processing stage or conversion adds the opportunity for problems and issues!

One can look for flaws and find them (I'm still contemplating the implications of "glamour" video, like weddings, at 4K...). OR one can run into workflow or operational "issues" with new tech. EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion, even if it's misplaced or wrong.

I've learned to rely on reviews (and reviewers!) only so much - let's take an example of the Slashcam RX10 profile, which shows an "optimized" 12 db image that's entirely blown out... that's not a "good" example, by any means! That's not the first time I've seen UN-representative images, sometimes they get changed later...


Let's quit the spittin' match and get back to the nuts and bolts.

OK, so the manual sucks, that's 98.673% of manuals

OK, so it's really sharp... that's nice

OK, so the 30p thing may make for some issues with fast motion... oh well, nothing we didn't expect

OK, there's some RS - it's a CMOS chip, did we NOT know about this? DO we not know how to work around it by now?

OK, it's a compressed format, there may well be some situations where there are artifacts... again, this is a surprise?

Aliasing? I'm not seeing it, maybe some are... or are imagining it... or something... digital imaging can have "issues", new tech can run into challenging shooting situations, post processing can introduce all sorts of additional problems...

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Next time use Slashcam's or my actual words with quotes so we know you are willing to stand behind what you say

The advantage of having Germany as my neighboring country and the fact that I grew up with German tv is that I do understand the language, not perfectly but I don't need a google translation to read and understand the article in it's native language, the problem with quoting a google translated text is that certain nuances get lost and can result in weird, funny looking texts that can even be misunderstood. My personal opinion is that a site like slashcam who uses these kind of translation engines to provide their non-german readers with text can't be taken seriously.

For instance, a better translation of below sentence is:
"Doch im Moment sieht es danach aus, als ob Panasonic die meisten 4K-Herzen in dieser Preisklasse deutlich für sich gewinnen kann."

"At this moment it clearly looks like Panasonic could win most of the 4K hearts in this price range".

It does not mean the GH4 is the best camera like you stated, it only means that the gh4 could become a more popular camera, as you see the difference lies in the small nuances and how you interpret the text.

But that alone is actually a quite ridiculous statement, the gh4 and the AX100 are 2 completely different camera's and they serve 2 totally different markets, the only thing they have in common is that they can shoot in 4K. It's like comparing my sony cx730 with the panasonic gh3 just because both can shoot 1080p 50p and then to say the gh3 is the best camera because it can do higher bitrates.

[Dave Blackhurst]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Every statement I posted was a quote from Slashcam.

"Doch im Moment sieht es danach aus, als ob Panasonic die meisten 4K-Herzen in dieser Preisklasse deutlich für sich gewinnen kann."

Translate and then please post so others see what they actually said. By the way, you even misquoted me.

Next time use Slashcam's or my actual words with quotes so we know you are willing to stand behind what you say. Your consistent misquoting reveals you are so threatened you are willing to lie -- over and over trying to convince others that Slashcam supports your conclusions.

Actually, there will be no "next time" for your posts.

Steve, since you seem to be trying to make a threat...

HERE is the entire (admittedly rough) translation of the WHOLE sentence/paragraph, not the half portion you posted:

"But at the moment it looks like as if Panasonic most 4K heart can clearly win in this price range"...
<OK, so that supports your OPINION, followed by>

"Even if scenic and cinematic work is not the strength of the FDR-AX100, it is nevertheless a nice 4K model for all which, which allows users to quickly shoot out of hand do not need the flexibility and the data rates of GH4 and / or are looking for a relatively compact all-in-one device. Who wants to spend time with anyway color grading and much material takes almost unedited, also get with the Sony a very coherent 4K image Out-Of-The-Box, which in the editing program on FullHD scaled down looks fantastic. Especially the combination with the XLR adapter K1M could to send a clear buy signal for many users"

<which supports the OPINIONS of the users Sony envisions for the camera, even if these are not people who will rush out to buy your books or read your reviews!>


Context works both ways... and manufacturing a controversy is "modern" journalism I suppose... ain't the Internet grand!? Good theatre, I suppose, thought of it as a "marketing technique" myself in one little niche I'm in!



The GH4 is certainly a compelling upgrade path IF you've already got the lenses and accessories, which one might well have IF they are trying for budget "filmic" output... I've looked at the GH series, nice output, but an investment in an entirely new system isn't of interest...

I'd rather have the AX100 for event and everyday use, and I can re-use some accessories I've already got...

I have no Spielbergian delusions or ambitions, so the "BM" cameras don't intrigue me that much... though they are "interesting".



Here's the best part, there ARE people who WILL find these other cameras useful for what they want to do, ad go out and buy them, helping put food on tables, make house and car payments, keep the economy going, and so on.

Can't we all just be good with that?

[Dave Blackhurst]

Thank you Noa!

My German is pretty rusty, but you are spot on that "universal" translators, while useful, often fail on nuance and context.

And of course, since EVERYTHING you see or read on the Internet is TRUE... or NOT... one has to come to their own conclusions, and sometimes let opposing "opinions" stand or fall on their own merits, or lack thereof!

I've seen enough output from the AX100 to feel it's worth adding in, and it can replace some existing cameras for my uses. I'll continue to wish the RX10 had 4K enabled...

You've got some GH investment, so I'm sure in the back of your mind... the GH4 is at least gnawing a little!

In the end different tools for different purposes, and this new 4K mountain we are about to climb should be about figuring out how to deal with this new format, not about slogging one or another camera!

WE need a thread or forum section about "4K workflow (and cameras?)", as I'm sure we will all be facing challenges!

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

That 720p YouTube video "proved" absolutely nothing, other than artifacts can happen, every processing stage or conversion adds the opportunity for problems and issues!

OK -- if I have to answer one at a time, I'll do it.

You clearly didn't read that the 720p was a sample of the Dual Record function. I put it up so other can see how good it looks.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

Steve, since you seem to be trying to make a threat...

"... the FDR-AX100, it is nevertheless a nice 4K model for all which, which allows users to quickly shoot out of hand do not need the flexibility and the data rates of GH4 and / or are looking for a relatively compact all-in-one device.

OK -- if I have to answer one at a time, I'll do it.

Clearly you didn't accurately read my post -- perhaps because you needed something to attack with.

I said:

"Panasonic dares (unlike Sony) with the GH4 for the first time, not artificially to protect its own Pro devices, but on with the GH4 any possibility of free, which seems to be somehow justifiable in this price range. Sony would do so, the FDR-AX100 would be much more competitive. << THEY SEE IT AS LESS COMPETITIVE >> But at the moment it looks like as if Panasonic most 4K heart can clearly win in this price range. << THE GH4 IS THE BEST CAMERA >>

READ THIS BELOW THAT YOU AVOIDED QUOTING:
Even if scenic and cinematic work is not the strength of the FDR-AX100, << EXACTLY >> it is nevertheless a nice 4K model for all who do not need the flexibility and the data rates of GH4 and / or are looking for a relatively compact all-in-one, which allows users to quickly shoot out of hand. << EXACTLY >>

Threat -- I don't make threats. Ken is no longer an issue for me.

[Noa Put]

On the rx10 there was also a review on a site run by a German guy who claimed that eventhough the camera produced nice images he had to delete several shots because they where not usable to him as a result of the codec breaking apart. You will always have people that shoot high detail fast moving scenes, then freeze frame it, blow it up 400% in photoshop, stick their faces against the screen, look for artifacts and then say the camera sucks.

I have shot some footage with my rx10, which can also be seen in my signature under "Videos" and in it's native form it looks fantastic on my big lcd screen viewed from a normal distance, from what I have read the ax100 even adds to that experience by providing a even sharper downsampled 1080p, for me the imagequality of the rx10 is more then good enough for my paying wedding clients.

Also when talking about price ranges, you have to bear in mind you need to add double the cost of a gh4 body for all lenses required, add a good nd filter to that price and the gh4 is more then twice the price of the ax100 (which is a all in one solution) which many people tend to forget. Ofcourse if you already heavily invested in m4/3 glass and have a gh3 like me the step to a gh4 body only is just a small and obvious one. But I"ll say it again, I don't see what the gh4 has to do with the ax100 as they are totally different camera's for different purposes.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

"Doch im Moment sieht es danach aus, als ob Panasonic die meisten 4K-Herzen in dieser Preisklasse deutlich für sich gewinnen kann."

"At this moment it clearly looks like Panasonic could win most of the 4K hearts in this price range."

When you "win the heart" of a woman it means she has decided to pick you amoungst others. She sees you as the BEST choice. Your weakening of the clear meaning of their words won't work.

But, I agree that they -- not me -- said something stupid.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Threat -- I don't make threats. Ken is no longer an issue for me.

Oh my, I've been rendered irrelevant by Steve Mullen. How can I go on? 😃

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

The advantage of having Germany as my neighboring country and the fact that I grew up with German tv is that I do understand the language, not perfectly but I don't need a google translation to read and understand the article in it's native language, the problem with quoting a google translated text is that certain nuances get lost and can result in weird, funny looking texts that can even be misunderstood. My personal opinion is that a site like slashcam who uses these kind of translation engines to provide their non-german readers with text can't be taken seriously.

For instance, a better translation of below sentence is:
"Doch im Moment sieht es danach aus, als ob Panasonic die meisten 4K-Herzen in dieser Preisklasse deutlich für sich gewinnen kann."

"At this moment it clearly looks like Panasonic could win most of the 4K hearts in this price range".

Precisely. That was exactly how I too intrepeted it. Of course if you're trying to put the camera in a bad light, you might say something quite different. ;)

[Dave Blackhurst]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

OK -- if I have to answer one at a time, I'll do it.

Clearly you didn't accurately read my post -- perhaps because you needed something to attack with.

I said:

"Panasonic dares (unlike Sony) with the GH4 for the first time, not artificially to protect its own Pro devices, but on with the GH4 any possibility of free, which seems to be somehow justifiable in this price range. Sony would do so, the FDR-AX100 would be much more competitive. << THEY SEE IT AS LESS COMPETITIVE >> But at the moment it looks like as if Panasonic most 4K heart can clearly win in this price range. << THE GH4 IS THE BEST CAMERA >>

READ THIS BELOW THAT YOU AVOIDED QUOTING:
Even if scenic and cinematic work is not the strength of the FDR-AX100, << EXACTLY >> it is nevertheless a nice 4K model for all who do not need the flexibility and the data rates of GH4 and / or are looking for a relatively compact all-in-one, which allows users to quickly shoot out of hand. << EXACTLY >>

Threat -- I don't make threats. Ken is no longer an issue for me.

Hmm, I seem to see that EXACT part quoted... but anyway... maybe you really are seeing things that aren't there, and not seeing things that are? I hate it when that happens <wink>!

And your explanation on that 720p clip wasn't informative enough to "read"... but again, whatever. Maybe I missed the part about "dual record function", but I'm not even sure what you refer to or how it's applicable... I "infer" that your point is that YOU are seeing artifacts under the set of conditions particular to your setup, that's fine, and maybe you are "on to" something, but it's not consistent with what others are finding and seeing.


Steve... no "attacks" from my end, I've always taken what you post with due respect, but at this point, as much as I appreciate your apparent frustration with the AX100, lousy manuals, and PC's, and universal translators, and people who just want to grab a camera and shoot with good results, and maybe something you ate for lunch... it's not adding much to the "info"... Lots of things to get frustrated over nowadays, but that's not what DVi is here for...

Take it for what it's worth... if you don't think the AX100 is worth writing a manual or whatever on, try to realize there are others who will find it a perfectly usable device, and RESPECT that...

[Don Meers]

Does anyone have an idea on a PAL release for the Ax100??

[Dave Blackhurst]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

Precisely. That was exactly how I too intrepeted it. Of course if you're trying to put the camera in a bad light, you might say something quite different. ;)

Bring it on, I'm still lookin' fer that "open box return DEAL"!

So can I turn <on> the "sarcasm font"...

The AX100 is obviously a terribly flawed, inadequate camera with horrible artifacting and rolling shutter that cannot possibly be used to take pretty scenes and filmic works of art! The manual is the most boring horrible uninformative drek I've read since the Affordable Care Act... and the buttons are just all wrong! The audacity of Sony to release such a horrid product onto the market should result in all Sony execs being hunted down, tarred and feathered! Go buy anything else lest your eyeballs bleed from the tragedy that lies within...

Sarcasm font <off>


Now to go find my "open box deal"...