Sony FDR-AX100

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Bruce Dempsey

I shoot live switched sometimes with 4 cameras and the output of the switcher is recorded so the individual camera recording is not so important.
The gist of my question is " If the ax100 is set to record 4k but the record button is NOT pressed, what is the 1080p in-camera down-converted HDMI video like? Is it similar to what everyone is raving about sharper than straight shot 1080?

As long as the record button is not pressed, you'll get full 4K output from the HDMI.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

This enables a visual check on the camera's capture, but won't support recording of a useable movie.

Never said it would. It's used to monitor, that's it.

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

I haven't seen answers to:

1) I assume the HDMI output is 8-bit.

2) Is it 420 or 422?

3) What is the output when shooting 30p? Some tvs don't accept 30p or 60p. At 1920x1080 they expect 60i.

4) What is the output when shooting 24p? Some tvs don't accept 24p (and add 3:2 pulldown) or 60p (with 3:2 pulldown added in the camera). At 1920x1080 they expect 60i with 3:2 pulldown.

5) Has anyone connected to a 4k tv?

1. I assume that too
2. The downmixed HD content is, as far as I know, 4:2:2
3. I seem to recall my plasma reporting 1080 60p
4. Not sure, I hate 24p so I couldn't tell you.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Mark Rosenzweig

So, dump Apple: Vegas Pro, for example, has no trouble playing, editing or outputting XAVC on any Windows laptop. Almost all the troubles people have had with common video standards (e.g., AVCHD) and post to video forums have been people using Apple computers.

Amen to that. I wish I had a $1 for every 'incompatible' question I've seen asked regarding Apples. There are just so many more editing programs for the PC than the Apple and most don't have the issues I see Apples having.

[Cliff Totten]

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

Interesting, rolling shutter is normally more pronounced at faster shutter speeds. At lower speeds the motion blur tends to mask the skew, the faster the shutter the crisper the motion so the skew becomes more obvious.

Playing with more 24p tonight. I need to make a correction:

When shooting you are shooting 24p, you need to be careful with rolling shutter skew at "all" shutter speeds!

I don't normally shoot 24p on any camera I own. Just threw the AX100 into 24p tonight and shot a bit. Ehh...I would only use it in desperate low light situations. You get about a 3db noise advantage with 24p 1/24 shutter over 30 1/30 shutter.

Anybody wonder if 24 frame at 60Mbp/s givs a slight compression advantage over 30p? That's a 6 frame drop...20% improvement?? Prolly not because of Long GOP structure?

CT

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Mark Rosenzweig

So, dump Apple: Vegas Pro, for example, has no trouble playing, editing or outputting XAVC on any Windows laptop. Almost all the troubles people have had with common video standards (e.g., AVCHD) and post to video forums have been people using Apple computers.

You must be joking! First, I have Windows so I know why I never use it. Still not useable at 8.1. Truly a hated OS.

Second, I have Vegas so I know why I never use it. Were I on Windows I would use Edius because at least a few pros use it and it works in real-time. And, while every Tom, Dick, and Harry makes an NLE for Windows -- they are junk aimed at newbies who only want to spend $49.99 -- on sale at 29.99. If one is serious, it's Media Composer -- which I have on the Mac.

I've reviewed camcorders for decades and have never had a problem with any Apple product working with a camera's output. Also, professional magazines do not want one to write about Window's workflow because they know most post-houses use OS X. Apple owns the media creation business.

Also would never give-up ProRes. Nor the reliability of Apple hardware (#1) and the freedom from viruses.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

As long as the record button is not pressed, you'll get full 4K output from the HDMI.

What if you want FHD?

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

Playing with more 24p tonight. I need to make a correction:

When shooting you are shooting 24p, you need to be careful with rolling shutter skew at "all" shutter speeds!

Anybody wonder if 24 frame at 60Mbp/s givs a slight compression advantage over 30p? That's a 6 frame drop...20% improvement?? Prolly not because of Long GOP structure?

CT

Shooting at 24fps, images are taken with longer intervals BETWEEN CAPTURES than when shooting at 30fps. So moving objects will have moved more. I suspect this is why you see more RS.

RS is tied to the shutter-speed system.

Again each image will be more different at 24p than at 30p so they will be harder to compress.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

What if you want FHD?

Perhaps you might try setting the camera to the HD mode?

[Cliff Totten]

Interesting tidbit on bitrate.....

Shot many 30p 4K test clips today. Some were very slow pans, others had fairly fast zoom ins an outs and somewhat "rushed" pans.

I loaded them into "Bitrate Viewer" and plotted each files bitrate across the length of each.

Files show a very fairly constant average of 50-55 M/bps. However, some spikes did actually touch the 70+ Mbp/s mark! 60-65 Mbp/s peaks were not uncommon either. The absolute lowest rate I found was 48 Mbp/s.

Interesting. It's a fairly "dynamic" VBR codec.

CT

Edit: New tests shooting my Dogs in backyard - Spikes went as high at 81 Mbp/s with "routine" spikes in the high 60's and low 70's. The results are nice! I'm beginning to losing my fear of this CODEC. ;-)

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

You must be joking! First, I have Windows so I know why I never use it. Still not useable at 8.1. Truly a hated OS.

Say what? I've been using windows for years on a number of computers, and ever since Windows XP it's been solid as a rock. If you've had issues, don't blame windows, blame something in your computer's configuration.

Windows 8.1 is no different, solid as a rock. I've used Edius in all its iterations and recently, some of the 'lesser' programs for 4K, like Power Director 12 and Sony's free program that comes with the AX100. They're all very stable and, like all editing programs, have their pros and cons.

But I agree with Mark. As a frequent reader of many forums, it seems there are far more issues with compatibility from Mac users. I have nothing against Apple, but it's hard not to notice obvious patterns.

[Steve Mullen]

Thinking more about performance -- I really doubt Vegas plays XAVC UHD at a steady 30fps with filters and transitions.

In fact, short of FCP X on a MacPro, I doubt anything can play XAVC UHD at a steady 30fps.

And, that's the key! It's not importing or editing. That's no big deal to talk about. Even iMovie can do this.

The issue with EVERY NLE is perfect UHD playback -- especially with filters and transitions. The ONLY solution is to play/edit proxy files.

And, IF your NLE supports proxy video -- which yours may not -- your NLE will take time to convert XAVC UHD to a proxy. No way to avoid this. PC or Mac -- it will take time. Only the speed of the CPU matters.

So the wait has nothing to do with Apple as some have suggested. Media Composer under Windows will behave the same as under OS X. You will wait for XAVC to be transcoded to DNxHD.

FCP X is very different as it automatically makes proxy files. While this must take time, ONE CAN EDIT WHILE WAITING.

The problem I mentioned was with filters. It only occurs with those NOT written by Apple. REPEAT: there is no problem with Apple filters! Some non-Apple filters were never written/tested with 4X larger proxy files. These will get fixed.

So the 2 of 3 NLE's used at post houses, MC and FCP X, I have confirmed do work. I now must check Premiere -- which is the third NLE.

======================

UPDATE:

Premiere Pro CS6 is amazing. It simply imports XAVC UHD and when viewing is set at 1/4th resolution -- which looks fine on your computer monitor -- it plays just fine. I knew it was good for DSLR media, but it seems perfect for XAVC. This might be ideal for the AX100 if you can stand Premiere.


In iMovie, if you check Full-Optimize XAVC UHD will be transcoded to AIC UHD and after that editing is very good considering you are editing UHD fully in real-time as iMovie NEVER renders anything. You must, of course, wait for the transcode to finish.

So everything seems to be fine on all four OS X based NLEs. I must relearn Premiere I guess.


If you work with other NLE's, post your workflow and results.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

Windows XP it's been solid as a rock.

Windows 8.1 is no different, solid as a rock.

I've used Edius in all its iterations and recently, some of the 'lesser' programs for 4K, like Power Director 12 and Sony's free program that comes with the AX100.

I have XP on one system and loved it. It was a great OS and folks continue to love it! But, you must have read the years of tirades by XP users against Vista, 7, 8, and it continues with MS still not getting things right with 8.1. (I have another system with Vista and it is a total pig.)

Typical stories: Download Windows 8.1 Update 1 Early, If You Dare; HP Bringing Back Windows 7 'By Popular Demand'; Start Menu Could Return to Windows in Spring 2014 -- That's probably wishful thinking; Windows 8 Support Will End in Two Years; Looks like the "Metro" apps will invade the desktop in the next Windows 8 update; Microsoft Pays Out $100,000 for Windows 8.1 Flaw. These are from a Tom's site dedicated to Windows. MS is now paying folks to leave XP.

It didn't used to be this bad. I've owned and used -- and built PCs -- but since XP something has gone wrong inside MS. Now they hope Windows 9 will make folks happy.

As far as folks posting problems -- I've spent the last few years focused on 4K and Digital Cinema. JVC released 4k OS X software that generated ProRes. All the deBayering software does the same. And, of course BM cameras shoot Apple's ProRes. Sony CineAlta have OS X applications. So in these worlds Apple is the most common computer.

And yes, 24fps is the only frame-rate used. :)

But, were BD and YouTube to offer 1080p60 -- and if Apple TV supported 1080p60, I would be very willing to give-up 4K. I don't think Apple says which YouTube stream Apple TV uses.

Another Apple bitch. Suddenly Safari does not provide the stream selector. Apple, simply says it uses the stream that's best for you! I think they want to prevent you from knowing iTunes doesn't support UHD. So I downloaded Chrome which still gives me the selector. I love Macs, but I really hate the way Apple treats you as an idiot. And, my Samsung Note 2 is so advanced over my wife's new iPhone.

[Ron Evans]

I have Edius Pro 7 ( my main editor), Vegas Pro 12 and CS6( which I really do not use but comes with the Suite that I have mainly used for Photshop and AE ). I have not tried CS6 with either XAVC or XAVC-S but both Vegas 12 and Edius will play XAVC fine, XAVC-S needs to be edited with Vegas at Draft/half for reasonable frame rate and Edius will just play XAVC-S 60P with the buffer just hovering on 2 ( much like running multicam with 5 cameras in my case) with one colour filter setting. Placed in a 1920x1080 project ( my main use for 4k anyway) Edius will again just play with buffer at about 2 with occasional falter to playback. Quite usable for editing. Edius will generate a proxy automatically but I always have this turned off. I have converted to HQX which takes about 1 1/2 realtime on my system and then will run easily in realtime of course with a full resolution file. This what I did for HDV and AVCHD when they first came out and the NLE's of time could not manage native files in realtime. I expect with faster processors and improvements to the NLE's things will progress as before !!!!

My PC is an i7 3770K, 16G RAM, 6 HD of about 5T, GTX560 running WIN 7.

Ron Evans

Edit: I should point out that other than the XAVC files( which were from the PXW-Z100 ) I downloaded from the internet that play just fine, all the files I refer to are from my FDR-AX1 which are 60P 150Mbps files

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Thinking more about performance -- I really doubt Vegas plays XAVC UHD at a steady 30fps with filters and transitions.

In fact, short of FCP X on a MacPro, I doubt anything can play XAVC UHD at a steady 30fps.

I guess you're not familiar with Edius Pro 7. That will play XAVC files at a steady 30fps.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

I have XP on one system and loved it. It was a great OS and folks continue to love it! But, you must have read the years of tirades by XP users against Vista, 7, 8, and it continues with MS still not getting things right with 8.1. (I have another system with Vista and it is a total pig.)

Couldn't disagree with you more. I have had XP, Windows 7 and now Windows 8.1 on a number of machines and they are all rock solid. In the editing world we're looking for stability and since XP, we've gotten that. In all the machines I've had from XP on, I really think I could count the crashes from all the machines on one hand.

What people are largely bitching about with Windows 8 is that it behaves as 2 different OS. The home screen with the tiles and the desktop. But you can enable the OS to boot right in to the desktop if you don't want the tiles. Easy business.

People are never comfortable with a new OS, especially one that looks so different. I happen to like it, but that's me. However the major point is, and I'll repeat it, the OS is rock solid and has been ever since we got rid of Vista (and there I do agree with you, it was unstable and not fun).

BTW, what I do envy Mac users for is their monitors. I've yet to see a monitor that I can use for a PC that looks as good as the 27" IMac I watched the other day, as I tried my AX100 files. They were just stunningly beautiful.