Sony FDR-AX100

Steve Mullen · March 23rd, 2014, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

Edit: Ah, Mark has the answer! Mine was a 64gig card and thus was pre-formatted properly for the AX100. Thanks Mark.

So a card comes from the factory with different formats depending on capacity. That would explain why my 16gb and 32gb cards didn't work until I formatted them ex=fat.

But why doesn't the ax100 format as ex-fat since it should know it must be ex-fat for xavc? It looks like the camera simply reformats it to be what it was. But, why? Or, why not a menu item to select?

That's a problem if traveling because one wouldn't have a computer along. So would one need to buy a 64gb? Lots of luck if one is tibet or even at BB which doesn't stock "expensive" cards.

My 16GB was new and uhs-1. U with a 1 inside.

By the way, using the AJA speed test -- the card was nowhere near claimed speed. Only 35MB/second Read and Write.

Ron Evans · March 23rd, 2014, 09:30 PM

Maybe format depends on what the current record mode is set at in the camera. AVCHD does not need ex-FAT.

Ron Evans

Cliff Totten · March 23rd, 2014, 09:36 PM

It's funny. I shot some footage with the AX100 at my local Best Buy today. (they let me shoot to my own card)

I shot at 30p using a 1/30 shutter and 1/60 shutter. (did not test 24p)

When looking at the video I shot, I noticed that it all looked extremely sharp. Slow panning and low motion scenes moved pretty smooth. However, every now and then I would get enough people walking by the shot to cause movement to look very "harsh" or unnatural. And again, other times it looked OK

Is anybody else noticing occasional "harsh" movement? I also noticed that the codec would sometimes "smear" pixels that were moving even very slowly. Not all the time, just occasionally.

Anybody else see this? Is this because of the 60MBp/s low bitrate?

Another thing I noticed when testing the video at home was that I saw plenty of compression artifacts on a 1080 zoom/crop. Its not sensor noise, its definetely codec noise the the blacks. So lets see how much zoom cropping that we can really do for 1080 delivery at this bitrate.

I preordered mine lat week. Cant wait to get it!

I REALLY cant wait to see what Sony might do with a "pro" version of this camera next month!

CT

Bruce Dempsey · March 24th, 2014, 05:54 AM

Hearkening back to the HC1 which ran me 1999.00 at pre0rder time from the states and then a few months later I was able to get one from Japan for 1000.00 and then a few months after that the HC3 was released for even less.
Unlike most, I'm happy enough to use a consumer version as I do videographer stuff rather than cinema and besides lately nobody seems to notice or care what the gear looks like especially if an on tripod monitor is used then it looks Pro enough and is OK.
Seems the deFacto and must include feature for cam vendors in the upcoming crop of cheap cameras will be 4K. so I might wait a bit and get 3 cheapo 4K sonys for multi cam and noOne except the pixel peeping pros will notice any difference.
I'm a contrarian in liking the benefits of relatively smallish sensors as a lot of my shoots involve fast movement of the subjects and the camera as in figureskating and various sports therefore the maintaining or really fast re-aqusition of focus is very very important for my work. Sony's release the other day of the 1/3 4k sensor for use in digi and camcorders is sure to be brilliant and no doubt will shoot 60p and beyond ....my 2p

Ken Ross · March 24th, 2014, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

It's funny. I shot some footage with the AX100 at my local Best Buy today. (they let me shoot to my own card)

I shot at 30p using a 1/30 shutter and 1/60 shutter. (did not test 24p)

When looking at the video I shot, I noticed that it all looked extremely sharp. Slow panning and low motion scenes moved pretty smooth. However, every now and then I would get enough people walking by the shot to cause movement to look very "harsh" or unnatural. And again, other times it looked OK

Is anybody else noticing occasional "harsh" movement? I also noticed that the codec would sometimes "smear" pixels that were moving even very slowly. Not all the time, just occasionally.

Anybody else see this? Is this because of the 60MBp/s low bitrate?

CT

Cliff, if your display has frame doubling capabilities, you'll be amazed at how much better motion looks.

When I implement frame doubling on my plasma, motion goes from just as you described to buttery smooth almost like it was true 60p.

I knew when I got the AX100 (the GH4 will be no different), that motion smoothness would take a hit. It's the reason I've never been a fan of 30p. But most modern displays have frame doublers or more, so motion is smoothed out tremendously. I've seen this on both my plasma and Sharp Elite LED.

Of course these same frame rate increases result in the dreaded soap opera effect with film, so you certainly don't want these engaged while watching movies. But for the AX100 output, it's great.

BTW, I stopped in to an Apple store yesterday and threw my clips on a 27" IMac. The clarity and detail were beyond belief. In fact it drew a crowd of about 5 or 6 people who were stunned by how good the footage looked. I believe at least 2 in that group were going to order the AX100 based on what they saw. The scary thing is that this still wasn't as good as when I saw it on an 85" Samsung UHD TV with full array local dimming.

But that 27" IMac's display is just superb. Too bad my editing programs don't run on Mac.

Steve Mullen · March 24th, 2014, 07:35 PM

Sony does specify an SDXC card for XAVC.

=================

"SDHC cards are shipped preformatted with the FAT32 file system."

"SDXC adopts Microsoft's exFAT file system as a mandatory feature"

So one must buy SDXC cards and they start at 64GB:

SanDisk Extreme Pro 64 GB SDXC Class 10 UHS-1 Flash Memory Card 95MB/s SDSDXPA-064G-AFFP

SanDisk Extreme Plus 64 GB SDXC Class 10 UHS-1 Flash Memory Card 80MB/s SDSDXS-064G-AFFP

Lexar Professional 400x 128GB SDXC UHS-I Flash Memory Card LSD128CTBNA400

These cards can be very expensive unless bought on-line and may not be available in many locations.

On another site they claim much slower cards work fine -- such as the SanDisk SDSDU-064G-A11 64GB Ultra SDXC Card 30MB/s (Class 10). It's claimed to be UHS-I but it only has a 1 and not a 1 within a U so who knows.

Review: "The write speed is 11.28MB/s which is almost double the requirement for recording full HD video. It is above Class 10 but just barely."

It's half the price, but writing dual streams may be a whole different ball-game.

Cliff Totten · March 24th, 2014, 08:29 PM

Can anybody with an AX100 see if their HDMI port is outputting video in 4K while recording?

I read that it will output in 1080 but "not" in 4k??? No video at all???

I really hope this is not true.

CT

Ken Ross · March 24th, 2014, 09:00 PM

Steve, this morning I took a 32gig SDHC card I had been using in my RX10 and reformatted to exFAT. I put it in the AX100 and it recorded in the 4K mode perfectly. No error messages.

BTW, I had no trouble getting an SDXC card. Amazon and B&H both had it.

Cliff, I'll take a look tomorrow, but I doubt it will output anything via HDMI while recording in 4K.

Mark Rosenzweig · March 24th, 2014, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Sony does specify an SDXC card for XAVC.

=================

"SDHC cards are shipped preformatted with the FAT32 file system."

"SDXC adopts Microsoft's exFAT file system as a mandatory feature"

So one must buy SDXC cards and they start at 64GB:

SanDisk Extreme Pro 64 GB SDXC Class 10 UHS-1 Flash Memory Card 95MB/s SDSDXPA-064G-AFFP

SanDisk Extreme Plus 64 GB SDXC Class 10 UHS-1 Flash Memory Card 80MB/s SDSDXS-064G-AFFP

Lexar Professional 400x 128GB SDXC UHS-I Flash Memory Card LSD128CTBNA400

These cards can be very expensive unless bought on-line and may not be available in many locations.

You do not need those expensive cards. Waste of money. This has already been discussed. You can use, for example, Sandisk Ultra SDXC cards (30MBs/sec) which are cheap and available everywhere ($45). There are even cheaper cards that are class 10 and 64GB. They also come formatted exFAT.

The bitrate for 4K is 60Mbps. That is less than 10 MBps, so you do not need a really fast, expensive card. It is a major advantage of the AX100 compared with any of the non cellphone 4K alternatives - you can use cheap, readily-available sdxc cards.

And, you can format any card to exFAT with your computer before you travel. I use Ultra cards, and have shot hundreds of clips in 4K using them, including this video: https://vimeo.com/89673510#comment_11319741.

Once the card is exFAT, you can format it in the camera to get rid of files, over and over again. No computer needed.

Ken Ross · March 24th, 2014, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

Can anybody with an AX100 see if their HDMI port is outputting video in 4K while recording?

I read that it will output in 1080 but "not" in 4k??? No video at all???

I really hope this is not true.

CT

Mark has shown an easy workaround by using a tablet or phone via wifi in conjunction with the PlayMemories app on these devices. You get both the live video from the camera and telephoto control on the tablet or phone while the camera records in 4K.

Mark Rosenzweig · March 24th, 2014, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

Can anybody with an AX100 see if their HDMI port is outputting video in 4K while recording?

I read that it will output in 1080 but "not" in 4k??? No video at all???

I really hope this is not true.

CT

It may not be what you want, but you can view what the camera sees while shooting 4K remotely over wifi in real time.

Here is what it looks like:

http://www.avsforum.com/content/type...00/height/1000

You can see the red rec symbol is on (the camera is set to 4K) so the camera is shooting You can also see the zoom control and the start/stop button.

Here is the 4k clip taken remotely, with zoom:

This is my typical low-light set-up shot. Any jerkiness is the stream, or Youtube compression.

Ozzy Alvarez · March 24th, 2014, 09:30 PM

I recall that when I made the jump from SD to HD about a decade ago, that with my old Sony HDV camcorders like the HVR-A1U that if I shot in 1080i HD, the camcorder could be set to down convert to SD to play on my old SDTVs or to edit in SD on my PC. It was a handy feature to have between the transitioning from SD to HD.

Now, that we might be transitioning from HD to 4K, I was wondering if a similar process is possible here with the FDR-AX1 like being able to shoot 4K and then down convert and playback in HD on your HDTV or to edit in HD on your PC. Is that possible? I ask since 4K shooting might be the future, it is not the present right now.

Mark Rosenzweig · March 24th, 2014, 09:43 PM

The AX100 will play (downconvert) the 4K videos in (to) HD if it is attached to an HDTV by HDMI automatically. And, of course, you can convert 4K to HD in any editor, saving the original 4K files for later.

In the meantime you can also upload the 4K videos to Vimeo or Youtube, letting them make the conversions to HD (you do not have to). This works fine. And on Youtube you can also stream in 4K and view in 4K if you have a 4K viewing device.

Cliff Totten · March 24th, 2014, 10:21 PM

So HDMI (1080) field monitors cant be used while recording in 4k. (there goes my Atomos scopes and RGB parade.)

I guess that Sony is also making it very loud and clear that they DO NOT want you bypassing the 60 Mbp/s compression in any way, shape or form at this price point.

Now, the big question will be: If Sony releases the "pro" sister camera to the AX100 what "extra" will they give you for the $1000+ bucks?

XLR Top handle for sure.
XQD card socket?
100 Mbp/s codec at 4:2:0 8 bit?
"unlocked" HDMI out while shooting 4k?
Histogram?
"NXCAM" badge?

I'd return my pre ordered AX100 and spend the extra $1000 for that.

Sony has a Sunday, April 6 live web streaming press event in Las Vegas. All questions will be answered then!

CT

p.s. Alister,....have you signed any NDA's yet? ;-)

Dave Blackhurst · March 24th, 2014, 11:15 PM

So far the videos are looking pretty impressive...

Sony runs a risk if they release a "pro" version from what I've seen so far. "Watching video" is more like looking through a window, even on my old 1080 screens, I'm not seeing any major flaws with the 30p (though I'm expecting fast motion might have some gotchas). I'm seeing much the same quality that the RX10 is delivering for me already, and with any luck the RX10 and RX100M2 will be good for "B" cams alongside the AX100. A lot of imaging power in small packages!

Sony would have to either price very high, or do something else to keep quite a few of their other cameras competitive... that's not to say I don't expect an NX version of this any day now, but Sony will have to be very careful not to cannibalize sales from themselves as they blaze the 4K trail with this thing. The so called "limitations" don't seem all that off putting as it is...

March 23rd, 2014, 09:30 PM	#602
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 Maybe format depends on what the current record mode is set at in the camera. AVCHD does not need ex-FAT. Ron Evans

March 23rd, 2014, 09:36 PM	#603
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 It's funny. I shot some footage with the AX100 at my local Best Buy today. (they let me shoot to my own card) I shot at 30p using a 1/30 shutter and 1/60 shutter. (did not test 24p) When looking at the video I shot, I noticed that it all looked extremely sharp. Slow panning and low motion scenes moved pretty smooth. However, every now and then I would get enough people walking by the shot to cause movement to look very "harsh" or unnatural. And again, other times it looked OK Is anybody else noticing occasional "harsh" movement? I also noticed that the codec would sometimes "smear" pixels that were moving even very slowly. Not all the time, just occasionally. Anybody else see this? Is this because of the 60MBp/s low bitrate? Another thing I noticed when testing the video at home was that I saw plenty of compression artifacts on a 1080 zoom/crop. Its not sensor noise, its definetely codec noise the the blacks. So lets see how much zoom cropping that we can really do for 1080 delivery at this bitrate. I preordered mine lat week. Cant wait to get it! I REALLY cant wait to see what Sony might do with a "pro" version of this camera next month! CT Last edited by Cliff Totten; March 23rd, 2014 at 11:03 PM.

March 24th, 2014, 05:54 AM	#604
Bruce Dempsey Major Player Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Atlantic Coast Canada Posts: 599	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 Hearkening back to the HC1 which ran me 1999.00 at pre0rder time from the states and then a few months later I was able to get one from Japan for 1000.00 and then a few months after that the HC3 was released for even less. Unlike most, I'm happy enough to use a consumer version as I do videographer stuff rather than cinema and besides lately nobody seems to notice or care what the gear looks like especially if an on tripod monitor is used then it looks Pro enough and is OK. Seems the deFacto and must include feature for cam vendors in the upcoming crop of cheap cameras will be 4K. so I might wait a bit and get 3 cheapo 4K sonys for multi cam and noOne except the pixel peeping pros will notice any difference. I'm a contrarian in liking the benefits of relatively smallish sensors as a lot of my shoots involve fast movement of the subjects and the camera as in figureskating and various sports therefore the maintaining or really fast re-aqusition of focus is very very important for my work. Sony's release the other day of the 1/3 4k sensor for use in digi and camcorders is sure to be brilliant and no doubt will shoot 60p and beyond ....my 2p Last edited by Bruce Dempsey; March 24th, 2014 at 07:01 AM.

March 24th, 2014, 07:35 PM	#606
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 Sony does specify an SDXC card for XAVC. ================= "SDHC cards are shipped preformatted with the FAT32 file system." "SDXC adopts Microsoft's exFAT file system as a mandatory feature" So one must buy SDXC cards and they start at 64GB: SanDisk Extreme Pro 64 GB SDXC Class 10 UHS-1 Flash Memory Card 95MB/s SDSDXPA-064G-AFFP SanDisk Extreme Plus 64 GB SDXC Class 10 UHS-1 Flash Memory Card 80MB/s SDSDXS-064G-AFFP Lexar Professional 400x 128GB SDXC UHS-I Flash Memory Card LSD128CTBNA400 These cards can be very expensive unless bought on-line and may not be available in many locations. On another site they claim much slower cards work fine -- such as the SanDisk SDSDU-064G-A11 64GB Ultra SDXC Card 30MB/s (Class 10). It's claimed to be UHS-I but it only has a 1 and not a 1 within a U so who knows. Review: "The write speed is 11.28MB/s which is almost double the requirement for recording full HD video. It is above Class 10 but just barely." It's half the price, but writing dual streams may be a whole different ball-game. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c Last edited by Steve Mullen; March 24th, 2014 at 10:19 PM.

March 24th, 2014, 08:29 PM	#607
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 Can anybody with an AX100 see if their HDMI port is outputting video in 4K while recording? I read that it will output in 1080 but "not" in 4k??? No video at all??? I really hope this is not true. CT

March 24th, 2014, 09:00 PM	#608
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 Steve, this morning I took a 32gig SDHC card I had been using in my RX10 and reformatted to exFAT. I put it in the AX100 and it recorded in the 4K mode perfectly. No error messages. BTW, I had no trouble getting an SDXC card. Amazon and B&H both had it. Cliff, I'll take a look tomorrow, but I doubt it will output anything via HDMI while recording in 4K.

March 24th, 2014, 09:30 PM	#612
Ozzy Alvarez Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Kenilworth, NJ Posts: 85	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 I recall that when I made the jump from SD to HD about a decade ago, that with my old Sony HDV camcorders like the HVR-A1U that if I shot in 1080i HD, the camcorder could be set to down convert to SD to play on my old SDTVs or to edit in SD on my PC. It was a handy feature to have between the transitioning from SD to HD. Now, that we might be transitioning from HD to 4K, I was wondering if a similar process is possible here with the FDR-AX1 like being able to shoot 4K and then down convert and playback in HD on your HDTV or to edit in HD on your PC. Is that possible? I ask since 4K shooting might be the future, it is not the present right now.

March 24th, 2014, 09:43 PM	#613
Mark Rosenzweig Trustee Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: New Haven, CT Posts: 1,004	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 The AX100 will play (downconvert) the 4K videos in (to) HD if it is attached to an HDTV by HDMI automatically. And, of course, you can convert 4K to HD in any editor, saving the original 4K files for later. In the meantime you can also upload the 4K videos to Vimeo or Youtube, letting them make the conversions to HD (you do not have to). This works fine. And on Youtube you can also stream in 4K and view in 4K if you have a 4K viewing device.

March 24th, 2014, 10:21 PM	#614
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 So HDMI (1080) field monitors cant be used while recording in 4k. (there goes my Atomos scopes and RGB parade.) I guess that Sony is also making it very loud and clear that they DO NOT want you bypassing the 60 Mbp/s compression in any way, shape or form at this price point. Now, the big question will be: If Sony releases the "pro" sister camera to the AX100 what "extra" will they give you for the $1000+ bucks? XLR Top handle for sure. XQD card socket? 100 Mbp/s codec at 4:2:0 8 bit? "unlocked" HDMI out while shooting 4k? Histogram? "NXCAM" badge? I'd return my pre ordered AX100 and spend the extra $1000 for that. Sony has a Sunday, April 6 live web streaming press event in Las Vegas. All questions will be answered then! CT p.s. Alister,....have you signed any NDA's yet? ;-)

March 24th, 2014, 11:15 PM	#615
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 So far the videos are looking pretty impressive... Sony runs a risk if they release a "pro" version from what I've seen so far. "Watching video" is more like looking through a window, even on my old 1080 screens, I'm not seeing any major flaws with the 30p (though I'm expecting fast motion might have some gotchas). I'm seeing much the same quality that the RX10 is delivering for me already, and with any luck the RX10 and RX100M2 will be good for "B" cams alongside the AX100. A lot of imaging power in small packages! Sony would have to either price very high, or do something else to keep quite a few of their other cameras competitive... that's not to say I don't expect an NX version of this any day now, but Sony will have to be very careful not to cannibalize sales from themselves as they blaze the 4K trail with this thing. The so called "limitations" don't seem all that off putting as it is...