Sony FDR-AX100

Andy Wilkinson · January 7th, 2014, 11:09 AM

Well the rumours are that the 4K Lumix in the glass case at CES is just a empty shell/mock-up…but I'll leave it to those actually at CES to dig for the info.

I will say I watched that Sony AX100 4K sample video again - it is incredible resolution and amazing to watch even on my Full HD monitors - the underlying sharpness is still apparent - but they are mostly static shots with little movement. Wonder what will happen when a lot of motion gets into frame?

I was also surprised at just how difficult it was to view without the occasional buffering/pausing (and I'm on a BT Infinity link - supposedly 80Mbps download speed fibre optic broadband - but often way less in reality of course…). Sure, it might be YouTube's servers struggling with the demand I guess (there were about 3,000 more views from when I first posted the video). Things will have to speed up a lot for 4K web viewing to go main stream over here in the UK I think.

I'm just about to buy a PMW-300 …anyone want to buy my immaculate, low hours EX3? My corporate clients are still a long way from 4K - some still struggle with 720p on their corporate laptops!)

And Alister, my HC1 still works if you want to make me an offer!!! ;-).

Think I might pick a AX100 up sometime in a few months time to "have a play with 4K" and see where that takes me :-)

Jack Zhang · January 7th, 2014, 11:16 AM

You can actually use "youtube-dl", a command line program to download the 4K files to your desktop. The latest VLC will be able to play it back minus the audio. You can then screenshot 4K res files and zoom in.

I'd say a HD 100% crop of the 4K footage is on par with a HDR-HC7. (which is still pretty good)

Monday Isa · January 7th, 2014, 11:16 AM

Glen, the mid-range consumer camera I was talking about was Canon's line. The only update to the line is 60P and other sharing storing features. I remember the days when Canon released their 1/3 2MP Full Raster Consumer camera G10. I was expecting some type of info on 4K in this range just to see where they'll be taking it. Nothing. Makes me think their Cinema EOS update may just be 60P and 10-bit at the higher end at this point. I'm looking to update my VG30 and Sony has really been catching my attention.

Glen Vandermolen · January 7th, 2014, 11:26 AM

Monday, thanks for the clarification. I mis-understood your posts.

Sony's certainly upped the ante, at least as far as consumer cams. I think the AX100 will take all of the other manufacturers by surprise. Although didn't Sony have some 4K mockups at last year's CES?

Ozzy Alvarez · January 7th, 2014, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Wilkinson

Official Sony video. Looks great!

On a side note I just dug out my little HC1 to take a look at it - still works! I had so much fun with that camera.

Sample Video for 4K Handycam FDR-AX100 - YouTube

I know the feeling. I have the pro version of the HC1, the A1U, and I've dug it out and started playing it with it again. It was my little faithful vacation cam & B cam and I had a lot of great times with this little cam. I was planning to replace it with either a NX70 or NX30. Now, I may have to wait to see if there is a Pro version of the AX100 instead.

Andy Wilkinson · January 7th, 2014, 11:50 AM

Just watched that video again on my retina MBP (the highest res screen I have). Nice!

Quote from the Sony AX100 specs page:

"Imaging Sensor : 1" (13.2mm x 8.8mm) back-illuminated Exmor R® CMOS Sensor"

Just a clarification question. As you can see Sony are claiming it's a "1-inch sensor" - but how does that equate to the mm dimensions stated in the brackets in the spec?

Sony Marketing Department guff???

Jack Zhang · January 7th, 2014, 11:56 AM

Best case scenario is that it is the RX100's sensor. Meaning it is 3:2 native, but it uses a 16:9 imaging area.

http://2.static.img-dpreview.com/rev...nsor-Sizes.png

My friend has a Seiki 39'' 4K display and I'll be loading up footage on that to see how it fares.

Andy Wilkinson · January 7th, 2014, 12:22 PM

Thanks Jack.

Darren Levine · January 7th, 2014, 12:29 PM

it's certainly eye catching, im not holding my breath till they actually publish hard bitrates. It' suspect that they specifically left that out.

Ron Evans · January 7th, 2014, 01:28 PM

Sony do not always get their specs correct. But the sensor will be simplistically 4 times the size of the one in the FDR-AX1 or PXW-Z100 so should have better low light performance.

Ron Evans

Dave Blackhurst · January 7th, 2014, 02:32 PM

Sony is putting a lot of muscle behind this 1" sensor - I noticed that the PJ790 looks like the last Handycam that will have a 1/2.88 sensor - the "new" replacements are all basically 1/4" sensors. Too bad that it wasn't possible to move the BOSS magic eyeball up to the 1" sensor block...

The RX100 was a HUGE paradigm shift, the 100M2 was a nice upgrade, the RX10 is another huge shift in the imaging market, and now the CX900 and AX100, the latter with affordable "stick my toe in the water" 4K. Sony is doing quite a few things right at the moment!

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that had old feelings rise up when I saw the AX100... the HC1 was a great camera, and broke the HD price point, the homage to the design in the AX100 may or may not have been intentional, but it sure does tug at the heartstrings!

It's VERY safe to say that they will add a XLR module, a mic, $300-500 to the pricetag, maybe a few other minor features, and a pro line designation... I think you could make that a sure bet, probably within a couple months. Anyone wants to make a "sucker bet" against it, I'll take your money so I can buy one!

Ron Evans · January 7th, 2014, 02:46 PM

Be interesting to see if a version with XQD and 60P with higher data rates will appear that would fit in with the FDR-AX1 and PXW-Z100 just smaller form factor and zoom range.

Ron Evans

Emmanuel Plakiotis · January 7th, 2014, 03:00 PM

Unfortunately all camera companies still name their sensors with wrong dimensions. Neither the 1/3, 1/2, 2/3 inch sensors are what their name claims, but much smaller. Its a leftover of the tube cameras epoch, where their image area dimensions included the edge of the tube as well.

This camcorder is the video version of the RX10. The lens is not constant aperture, but much longer as well. Probably it will be around f3 in the 200 (equivalent) focal length. Not much difference from RX10. So all those who thought RX10 as a camcorder replacement, can now have a real camcorder instead.
It seems that the 1"inch sensors have become the 16mm of the digital age. Sony, Canon, Nikon, BM, all have presence in the segment. I will not be surprised if this sensor size replaces the 2/3 size in the next generation of broadcast camcorders.

Bruce Dempsey · January 7th, 2014, 03:14 PM

Funny, I went hunting for my one remaining HDR-HC1 as well and held it up to the screen for a comparison and there is was all over again.
About the video comparison to the RX100. not so fast...I had one of those and couldn't pull good video out of it for the life of me but some others could and did. Hopefully Sony has streamlined / optimized the process for quick shot artists like myself who usually don't have the time or inclination to do much beyond WB and exposure. Those fractional sized sensors were quite forgiving in a lot of respects. Now looking around to see what gear I can sell to justify getting this baby :)

Dave Blackhurst · January 7th, 2014, 03:20 PM

My guess once again is that the memory is the "choke point"...

As I surmised, the 1" sensor and Bionz X processor were "4K ready" from the get go, I suspect the 30P was a compromise to shoehorn "consumer" 4K into a marketable product. Sort of like early 720 "HDTV", it's not "best", but it's good, or better, while the other things that 4K will require "catch up"!

Big fast SD cards are likely to be the "consumer" solution - most consumers are NOT going to spend hundreds of $$$ to video their lives... so there's a "need" for an economical recoding media ASAP. And since micro SDHC are in every phone, and SD cards are common, that will likely be the format of choice...

I already put off the computer upgrade, as I know 4K will require more than the roughly 1.5 - 2x boost I was considering... faster processor, more memory, huge HDD/storage, video that is capable of 4K output/display... Just as dealing with HDV required a big jump in computing horsepower, 4K is going to be a leap!

OTOH, at the $2K price point of the AX100, and it includes 1080p that one could use while getting up to speed, it would appear that Sony has "done it again".

January 7th, 2014, 11:09 AM	#31
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 Well the rumours are that the 4K Lumix in the glass case at CES is just a empty shell/mock-up…but I'll leave it to those actually at CES to dig for the info. I will say I watched that Sony AX100 4K sample video again - it is incredible resolution and amazing to watch even on my Full HD monitors - the underlying sharpness is still apparent - but they are mostly static shots with little movement. Wonder what will happen when a lot of motion gets into frame? I was also surprised at just how difficult it was to view without the occasional buffering/pausing (and I'm on a BT Infinity link - supposedly 80Mbps download speed fibre optic broadband - but often way less in reality of course…). Sure, it might be YouTube's servers struggling with the demand I guess (there were about 3,000 more views from when I first posted the video). Things will have to speed up a lot for 4K web viewing to go main stream over here in the UK I think. I'm just about to buy a PMW-300 …anyone want to buy my immaculate, low hours EX3? My corporate clients are still a long way from 4K - some still struggle with 720p on their corporate laptops!) And Alister, my HC1 still works if you want to make me an offer!!! ;-). Think I might pick a AX100 up sometime in a few months time to "have a play with 4K" and see where that takes me :-) __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

January 7th, 2014, 11:16 AM	#32
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 You can actually use "youtube-dl", a command line program to download the 4K files to your desktop. The latest VLC will be able to play it back minus the audio. You can then screenshot 4K res files and zoom in. I'd say a HD 100% crop of the 4K footage is on par with a HDR-HC7. (which is still pretty good)

January 7th, 2014, 11:16 AM	#33
Monday Isa Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: College Park, Maryland Posts: 913	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 Glen, the mid-range consumer camera I was talking about was Canon's line. The only update to the line is 60P and other sharing storing features. I remember the days when Canon released their 1/3 2MP Full Raster Consumer camera G10. I was expecting some type of info on 4K in this range just to see where they'll be taking it. Nothing. Makes me think their Cinema EOS update may just be 60P and 10-bit at the higher end at this point. I'm looking to update my VG30 and Sony has really been catching my attention.

January 7th, 2014, 11:26 AM	#34
Glen Vandermolen Space Hipster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,596	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 Monday, thanks for the clarification. I mis-understood your posts. Sony's certainly upped the ante, at least as far as consumer cams. I think the AX100 will take all of the other manufacturers by surprise. Although didn't Sony have some 4K mockups at last year's CES?

January 7th, 2014, 11:50 AM	#36
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 Just watched that video again on my retina MBP (the highest res screen I have). Nice! Quote from the Sony AX100 specs page: "Imaging Sensor : 1" (13.2mm x 8.8mm) back-illuminated Exmor R® CMOS Sensor" Just a clarification question. As you can see Sony are claiming it's a "1-inch sensor" - but how does that equate to the mm dimensions stated in the brackets in the spec? Sony Marketing Department guff??? __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

January 7th, 2014, 11:56 AM	#37
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 Best case scenario is that it is the RX100's sensor. Meaning it is 3:2 native, but it uses a 16:9 imaging area. http://2.static.img-dpreview.com/rev...nsor-Sizes.png My friend has a Seiki 39'' 4K display and I'll be loading up footage on that to see how it fares.

January 7th, 2014, 12:22 PM	#38
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 Thanks Jack. __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

January 7th, 2014, 12:29 PM	#39
Darren Levine Major Player Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NJ/NYC Posts: 563	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 it's certainly eye catching, im not holding my breath till they actually publish hard bitrates. It' suspect that they specifically left that out. __________________ C100 - GH4 - NYC Shooter www.DarrenLevine.com

January 7th, 2014, 01:28 PM	#40
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 Sony do not always get their specs correct. But the sensor will be simplistically 4 times the size of the one in the FDR-AX1 or PXW-Z100 so should have better low light performance. Ron Evans

January 7th, 2014, 02:32 PM	#41
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 Sony is putting a lot of muscle behind this 1" sensor - I noticed that the PJ790 looks like the last Handycam that will have a 1/2.88 sensor - the "new" replacements are all basically 1/4" sensors. Too bad that it wasn't possible to move the BOSS magic eyeball up to the 1" sensor block... The RX100 was a HUGE paradigm shift, the 100M2 was a nice upgrade, the RX10 is another huge shift in the imaging market, and now the CX900 and AX100, the latter with affordable "stick my toe in the water" 4K. Sony is doing quite a few things right at the moment! I'm glad I wasn't the only one that had old feelings rise up when I saw the AX100... the HC1 was a great camera, and broke the HD price point, the homage to the design in the AX100 may or may not have been intentional, but it sure does tug at the heartstrings! It's VERY safe to say that they will add a XLR module, a mic, $300-500 to the pricetag, maybe a few other minor features, and a pro line designation... I think you could make that a sure bet, probably within a couple months. Anyone wants to make a "sucker bet" against it, I'll take your money so I can buy one!

January 7th, 2014, 02:46 PM	#42
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 Be interesting to see if a version with XQD and 60P with higher data rates will appear that would fit in with the FDR-AX1 and PXW-Z100 just smaller form factor and zoom range. Ron Evans

January 7th, 2014, 03:00 PM	#43
Emmanuel Plakiotis Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 344	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 Unfortunately all camera companies still name their sensors with wrong dimensions. Neither the 1/3, 1/2, 2/3 inch sensors are what their name claims, but much smaller. Its a leftover of the tube cameras epoch, where their image area dimensions included the edge of the tube as well. This camcorder is the video version of the RX10. The lens is not constant aperture, but much longer as well. Probably it will be around f3 in the 200 (equivalent) focal length. Not much difference from RX10. So all those who thought RX10 as a camcorder replacement, can now have a real camcorder instead. It seems that the 1"inch sensors have become the 16mm of the digital age. Sony, Canon, Nikon, BM, all have presence in the segment. I will not be surprised if this sensor size replaces the 2/3 size in the next generation of broadcast camcorders.

January 7th, 2014, 03:14 PM	#44
Bruce Dempsey Major Player Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Atlantic Coast Canada Posts: 599	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 Funny, I went hunting for my one remaining HDR-HC1 as well and held it up to the screen for a comparison and there is was all over again. About the video comparison to the RX100. not so fast...I had one of those and couldn't pull good video out of it for the life of me but some others could and did. Hopefully Sony has streamlined / optimized the process for quick shot artists like myself who usually don't have the time or inclination to do much beyond WB and exposure. Those fractional sized sensors were quite forgiving in a lot of respects. Now looking around to see what gear I can sell to justify getting this baby :)

January 7th, 2014, 03:20 PM	#45
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Sony FDR-AX100 My guess once again is that the memory is the "choke point"... As I surmised, the 1" sensor and Bionz X processor were "4K ready" from the get go, I suspect the 30P was a compromise to shoehorn "consumer" 4K into a marketable product. Sort of like early 720 "HDTV", it's not "best", but it's good, or better, while the other things that 4K will require "catch up"! Big fast SD cards are likely to be the "consumer" solution - most consumers are NOT going to spend hundreds of $$$ to video their lives... so there's a "need" for an economical recoding media ASAP. And since micro SDHC are in every phone, and SD cards are common, that will likely be the format of choice... I already put off the computer upgrade, as I know 4K will require more than the roughly 1.5 - 2x boost I was considering... faster processor, more memory, huge HDD/storage, video that is capable of 4K output/display... Just as dealing with HDV required a big jump in computing horsepower, 4K is going to be a leap! OTOH, at the $2K price point of the AX100, and it includes 1080p that one could use while getting up to speed, it would appear that Sony has "done it again".