Sony FDR-AX100

[Paul Rickford]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

Great assessment Dave! It's the old case of people always thinking 'more is better'. As you say, in certain cases yes, but in most cases it's not going to mean much anyway. But if you're looking for an excuse not to buy, this just makes some feel better. :)

Yes let's not forget the main clue to the specification is in the HANDYCAM badge on the side!

Here NOW in 2014 we have a Handycam with full manual control, improved HD codec and OLED viewfinder etc. with entry into 4K thrown in almost as a bonus.

After Handling this at CES, I for one can't wait, I wonder-has any one been thrown a firmed shipping date yet??

[Ken Ross]

Paul, Amazon is saying 3/19 if I recall correctly. Sony is usually pretty good with meeting product release dates.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

I took the color bar test and got a 28....

More cowbell...

My feminine side won over, I got an 8. I know my color perception has always been pretty good. I remember doing that test a year ago and got a similar score. My wife got a 5, that surprised me.

Hey, maybe I do need 4:2:2! Dave, you can make do with B&W. :)

[Bruce Dempsey]

Your score: 11
0 ( Perfect Color Acuity ) 99 ( Low Color Acuity )
Color Test - Online Color Challenge | X-Rite

[Pavel Sedlak]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

...But 4k 4:2:0 has a TON of color information. I seriously would not be able to spot 4:2:0 video vs 4:2:2 at 4k resolution in an A/B test at all. It really looks the same to me. And keying 4:2:0 4k, Im sure will give more than great results. Lets not get lost entirely in "numbers" alone.

You are right that 4K has more color samples than HD, so 4K has the better start position for colors interpolation from 420 than HD. But 422 (or 444) color subsampling is not important for your eyes, this is wrong answer for our question.

The 422 (or 444) color sumbsampling is only the one small part of camera qualities, you need quality lens, chip, A/D converter, all DSP circuits must have the best quality (including the color interpretation), audio part..., coder, compression for record. The specification is only the basic view, I know a lot of differences between cameras with similar specifications.

10bit sampling and 422 chroma subsampling are inportant for big grading in postproduction, it is input for computer, not for your eyes .-) . It has also nothing to do with the quality of your eyes, with poor signal and with big color grading you will quickly see the differences.

I think that 4K 420 will be much more often in the low class of professional camcorders then in HD. Our brain will be surprised by the unusual sharpness from the beginning of 4K era, but quickly gets used. After this input we will see the same differences - natural image with really nice colors or unnatural image with an eletronic sharpness and poor colors.

Tha natural look is the most important part for viewers, more than sharpness .-) (the high contrast in details).

[Dave Blackhurst]

I'm going with it's time to replace/upgrade monitors and video card... yeah, that's it, not my old eyes!

[Ken Ross]

I'll support you on that Dave. ;)

[Dave Blackhurst]

Redid the test, got an 11... on a non color corrected LCD no less... though definitely newer than my "main" color corrected screens... hmmm....

Still say "more cowbell"....

And I still say that the new cameras will likely have "eye popping" image quality, and good looking color, sharpness, etc... however "deficient" the specs may be! I have yet to feel "disappointed" by anything I've shot with the RX10... it keeps calling to me to shoot more...

[Ken Ross]

Dave, I think the 11 score has moved you out of the 'color blind' category and in to our elite club where members can clearly differentiate red from green from blue. :)

Seriously, it's so easy to miss a few subtle shadings and color transitions on that test....and then there's the issue of the monitor you use during the test.

I agree though, I firmly believe the AX100 will surprise many just as the RX10 did. The RX10 has gained the respect of almost everyone out there. With what is essentially the same sensor and processing but with 4K, many additional features and an ergonomic form more befitting a video shooter, I'll be surprised if it isn't a hit.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

Seriously, it's so easy to miss a few subtle shadings and color transitions on that test....and then there's the issue of the monitor you use during the test.

And all joking apart, that's why I linked to the test.

If you import a screenshot into Photoshop, you can use the picker to see the R,G,B values of the individual blocks - typically, they are a couple of values (in the 8 bit world) apart. As Ken says "it's so easy to miss a few subtle shadings ....." - and that's with those differences. (They typically represent 7 bit resolution.) And it's without noise, especially moving noise, which typically masks gradation differences.

Do the test with some noise added to the blocks, and expect the score to go far higher....! :-)

So who still thinks 10 bit will make much difference over 8 bit in terms of seeing extra colour gradation on normal images? :-) Yes, it makes for a difference in the post process - but only if the source material is of extremely good quality in the first place. That's why unduly worrying about 10 bit on this class of camera is pretty pointless.

[Ken Ross]

Great points Dave, thanks.

[Cliff Totten]

This is strictly a rumor...however I read a post on a Sony board about the AX100s HDMI output. The guy was posting claims that a Sony rep told him that the HDMI port is NOT a clean output.

Again...no way to know if this is B.S. yet. That might be completely false.

If it us true, than this "could" be the smoking-gun crippling trick that we have been waiting for with this camera. "If" this is true, than there will be no way to ever get more than 60Mbp/s long GOP out of this camera...ever. Future 4k external recorders will be useless on this.

Again. No way to know yet until it hits the streets. Lets hope this is a lie. Or Sony changes its mind quickly on this.

[Ken Ross]

Really not sure how many would be using an external recorder with this camera. As for 4K external recording, your choices are one.

So I guess I'm dubious as to how many potential buyers would be deterred if this turns out to be true.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

Really not sure how many would be using an external recorder with this camera.

I agree, and if I was on the design team for the camera, I'd be hitting my head against the wall.

I'd feel like I'd designed a superb small, budget car, which everybody agreed was far better than anything in it's class or price range had ever been before - and I started to read comments along the lines of "it doesn't have the performance of a sports car though?" and "you can't even put a sports car engine in it!?"

All design - be it cars, cameras, washing machines or whatever - has to be a series of compromises. Do you (in the case of a car) design for off road ability? Capital cost? Fuel economy? Comfort or performance? Two seater and sporty, or can take the family - or big load carrying?

There's no right or wrong (from a designers point of view) but different products will appeal to different buyers. FWIW, I think this seems well designed *for the market it's aimed for*. Worrying about lack of features you may expect on a far more pro camera (10 bit, 4:2:2 etc) seem a bit like a farmer buying a 2 seater sports car, and complaining about it's lack of load carrying ability and off road performance......... :-)

[Wacharapong Chiowanich]

And on the contrary if this turns out to not be a lie and assume it to be 10-bit 4:2:2 of some sort then you could almost write an obituary for the AX100 and PZ100. Sony's got to be thinking hard about this before that March date arrives.