Sony FDR-AX100

[Galen Rath]

Probably their dividing line for consumer and prosumer is the inclusion of XLR audio input.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Darren Levine

I think they should have embraced the prosumer nomenclature, or ditched even more features and make it closer to the $1000 mark. this is the first THREE ND filter consumer camera...

Darren, in actuality Sony did embrace the 'prosumer nomenclature'. Take a look on the Sony site and see how they categorize this camera in their 'advanced' camera section, along with $4,500 cameras like the AX1.

I think this is pretty much Sony's acknowledgement that the AX100 is indeed at the 'prosumer' level...whatever that means. ;)

[Dave Blackhurst]

There is another term that is tossed about - "enthusiast"... and it is this market that Sony is tapping into. Historically, this market was probably labeled "prosumer", so the terms might be interchangeable for most purposes.


As I stated earlier, the traditional "consumer" market is now dominated by phone/tablet/phablets... compact digitals and low end camcorders are at a DEAD END! The SAMSUNG (yes, ONE BRAND of tablets/phones, and a couple hybrid phone/cameras) display floor at our local "Mini" Best Buy is at LEAST twice as big as the entire "camera" section (including video, P&S and SLRs)! Toss in the Apple section, and cameras are now a tiny "niche" market!! Notice I didn't even mention the PHONE display, taking up much of the prime "just inside the door" real estate... Cameras? Oh I think those are somewhere back in the back... and the "mini" format does NOT stock high end cameras in our neck of the woods!

The writing is on the wall, or more accurately the sales floor! I don't know of very many users that are using much beyond their phones/tablets... some still do, but realistically that market is shrinking fast.


BUT, there are those who spend a bunch on their tech toys, and still realize that they could be getting BETTER pictures and/or video, and maybe they want to learn about silly things like f-stop, shutter, ISO, and all that fun stuff. They have sufficient INTEREST beyond pointing and shooting to be an "enthusiast" - they don't shoot professionally (as in being paid to shoot), but they know and want to know more than some teenager shooting selfies, and like ANY hobby, they will invest some disposable income into it, within reason.

Frankly this is where the mysterious "fun" factor of using a camera sneaks into the equation - if someone is "enthusiastic", and picks up a camera that is easy and fun to shoot, but also has advanced capabilities and relatively good output... it's likely to sell. There are LOTS of "casual" DSLR shooters that have a LOT more than $2K invested on bodies and lenses, so there's a market there (albeit also a shrinking one!).

A 4K camera for $2K may not sell in huge quantities, but it should sell well enough - remember the HC1 was at $2k initially (IIRC the TRV900 was around $2500+), and while the "Handycam" flagships have come down some (think CX900 pricing!), this is a "cheap" entry into the 4K arena for those that are interested and want to experiment with it before making a larger investment (pros), or "enthusiasts" who want the best without breaking the bank entirely.

The next price level is more than twice as much... even an APS-C VG series E-mount or an A77 replacement with 4K is NOT going to be a "$2K" investment, by the time body and lenses are considered.

Economically, for those who shoot multi cam, this might well replace 2-3 cameras for shoots where pan/crop is a viable option, so there should be quite a few sold on that basis alone!

[Ken Ross]

^ Good assessment Dave, I think you're right on the money.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

There is another term that is tossed about - "enthusiast"... and it is this market that Sony is tapping into. Historically, this market was probably labeled "prosumer", so the terms might be interchangeable for most purposes.

All very true, though maybe there should be a distinction between enthusiasts with a lot of money and ones who are much poorer - just.... enthusiastic! :-)

It's human nature to try to categorise, but all this is an example of how difficult it really is - how quickly you get anomalies, let alone where you draw a line between true professional and prosumer.

[Bruce Dempsey]

[QUOTE= true professional and prosumer.[/QUOTE]
Professionals earn their living by using the camera. It's what professional means. Doesn't matter if it's a Kodak Brownie or an Alexa. Earning your living from it makes you a professional. Any other interpretation of the word is pretense imo

[Glen Vandermolen]

Sooo....

Who has considered getting a Z100 or AX1, but are now holding back until the AX100 arrives?

$2,000 is quite a selling point.

[Ken Ross]

Glen, since my use for this 4K cam will be solely pleasure, the size & weight of the AX1 & Z100 were too off-putting for me. The AX100 is absolutely perfect.

[Ron Evans]

I have a FDR-AX1 and if the AX100 had 60P I might consider changing but with just 30P it may just be a replacement for my CX700 but then may as well get the CX900 !! I will wait to see what else comes out I think and what the firmware upgrade to the AX1 contains. I do not like slow frame rates so 30P is almost a no go for me. Maybe a Pro version will have 60P.

Ron Evans

[Bruce Dempsey]

Ron isn't 30P same as 60i which we've been using forever?

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Bruce Dempsey

Ron isn't 30P same as 60i which we've been using forever?

No - same amount of data, each has 30 frames every second, but with 30p all the lines in a frame are captured at the same time. With 60i, every other line is first captured, then the other half a 1/60 second later, then all over again.

Most immediate and obvious difference is in the rendition of motion - 30p gives a more "jerky" rendition, 60i gives smoother motion.

Move to 60p and (like 60i) you get 60 separate images each second (so "smooth motion") - but they are all complete frames, not half the lines as with an interlace system.

[Jack Zhang]

Remember that the 4K standard finally abolished interlaced video formats, so it's all progressive now.

If there's distortion in the lens, but the internals are correcting for this, who cares?

The AX1 and Z100 proved working with garbage input processing into decent output wrong. No matter how much processing you put on a 1/2.3'' sensor, you will still be limited by noise that the processor is unable to correct for.

There is no justification for garbage in, garbage out. I'm honestly pissed off now that the FS700R refused to add XAVC. 4K RAW from that is absolutely amazing. Sony also limited Convergent Design from recording 4K RAW (I assume permanently) to not cannibalize the AXS recorders.

Panasonic may be moving in a better direction with MFT lenses, and I just hope their processing is also up to snuff.

[Ron Evans]

Yes since there is no 60i the only way to get the smooth motion in 4K is 60P. As I have been corrected several times. 60i is 59.94 fields a second. 2 fields is one frame so the time code increments every 2 fields so 60i is 29.97 frames per second time code NOT progressive frames like film would be. So the temporal motion of 60i is just like 60P just has half the vertical resolution. 30P is very different though unfortunately has the same timecode as 60i. 60i , for the same time period , has twice the exposures in the camera than 30P so much smoother motion.

Ron Evans

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by David Heath

No - same amount of data, each has 30 frames every second, but with 30p all the lines in a frame are captured at the same time. With 60i, every other line is first captured, then the other half a 1/60 second later, then all over again.

Most immediate and obvious difference is in the rendition of motion - 30p gives a more "jerky" rendition, 60i gives smoother motion.

Move to 60p and (like 60i) you get 60 separate images each second (so "smooth motion") - but they are all complete frames, not half the lines as with an interlace system.

Let me remind folks that if your display has frame doubling like my Samsung F8500 plasma, you can get 30p to look pretty buttery smooth. I've done just that with regular cellphone videos as a test. Those videos had the typical stutter you'd expect at 30p, but engaging the frame doubling made it hard to distinguish from true 60p.

That's one of the reasons (aside from an even better HD quality @50mbps & 4K) why I think I can get away with 30fps.

[Ron Evans]

Yes but how do you do that in your editing to get the output to be smooth for other people to view. I use my Sony 240HZ TV to do the same thing for the crappy cable TV or badly encoded BLuray in 24P. 60P is important to get the smooth motion and is the NEW 60i. If you don`t have interlace you need 60P ( or 50P ) . Also removing some things this way is possible but complex pan and motion shots are not possible and will always have the slow frame rate stutter. Faster frame rates at recording are the only solution for this situation. Fixed camera position can be resolved in playback but pan and motion within the pan not so. Shooting XAVC-S 1920x1080 at 60P should be good though.

Ron Evans