Sony FDR-AX100

[Ron Evans]

Originally Posted by Anthony Lelli

Peter

Dave,
ran more tests with evening lights and the 4K panning will be a challenge. I'll shoot 4 anyway , at least the first half.
But the reason why I'm telling you this is because it doesn't match, the whole thing doesn't match. let's say that again I compared the 1080 of both the XA20 and AX100 and the sony did better, also panning. Now the limitation of the 4K panning starts smelling funny to me. Was it intentional? It is exaggerated , doesn't look "normal" to me.

.

The sharper the image the more obvious a slow frame rate. 4K images are sharper than 1920x1080 so even at the same frame rate will exaggerate the stutter of 30P very clear in panning. In auto, if the AX100 is like most Sony's it will increase the shutter speed making the problem worse. Manual control of shutter speed to get the motion blur one expects from 50i or 60i is noticeably different to a slower or faster shutter speed ( at least on my FDR-AX1 ). Use ND's to maintain exposure.

Ron Evans

[Anthony Lelli]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

The sharper the image the more obvious a slow frame rate. 4K images are sharper than 1920x1080 so even at the same frame rate will exaggerate the stutter of 30P very clear in panning. In auto, if the AX100 is like most Sony's it will increase the shutter speed making the problem worse. Manual control of shutter speed to get the motion blur one expects from 50i or 60i is noticeably different to a slower or faster shutter speed ( at least on my FDR-AX1 ). Use ND's to maintain exposure.

Ron Evans

thanks Ron,
for me the shutter speed of choice would be 1/125 , so I'm testing the difference between 1/125 and 1/60. I'll be shooting (professional) soccer players running fast , actions like a corner kick following the ball , or a goalkeeper kicking to the opposite side again following the ball, cases where I have to pan, I just have to. While I see a slight difference @1/60 compared to 1/125 still it wouldn't be enough to add the blur of the targets running to the panning of the 4K. In other words I'll have to balance between the two bad things :)
As always we have the tool and we make it work, but at least in here we can open our mouth and bitch a little about it LOL

[Ron Evans]

I really don't think 30P will do what you want for your application. There is a reason sports networks use 60P for HD broadcasts. 60P was the reason I got the FDR-AX1 too.

Ron Evans

[Anthony Lelli]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

I really don't think 30P will do what you want for your application. There is a reason sports networks use 60P for HD broadcasts. 60P was the reason I got the FDR-AX1 too.

Ron Evans

well , maybe you mean the 30p of the 4K of the AX100 , right? Because Ive been shooting 30p the same soccer games with a sony EX1r for two years with no problem whatsoever panning.
and back we go to the AX100 and the need of spending 2.5K more for the facedetectionless ax1 .
Now it may make some sense (from the marketing point of view at Sony's I mean)

[Ken Ross]

Anthony, I think if you had no issues with 30p in the past, you'll have no issues with the 30p of the AX100. I would try to stay as wide as possible when panning quickly to minimize the RS issue. But depending on what's in your FOV (straight lines that are obvious to the viewer), the RS may not be much of an issue one way or the other.

I try to keep my shutter locked at 1/60th, but I can see the possibility of 1/125 working better in your application.

[Adam Gold]

Originally Posted by Anthony Lelli

... cases where I have to pan, I just have to....

With all due respect, physics couldn't care less what you just have to do. There are physical laws that dictate what you have to do to get smooth motion with very high resolution formats. Professional film DPs have been grappling with these for close to a hundred (well, 60 or 70) years shooting fine grained 35mm, 70mm and even the more recent IMAX formats and have published charts and graphs and whole books devoted to how fast you can pan and zoom and track and achieve proper motion without artifacts. This isn't new and bears some study. This isn't uncharted territory, no pun intended. I wish Charles would weigh in on this.

Ron is right. There is a reason that no broadcast network uses anything but 60i or 60p at standard shutter speeds. Quit screwing around with frame rates and shutter speeds and just do it the normal way. There is never a good reason for 30p unless you are doing cooking videos for web distribution to be viewed only on a PC monitor. Do they do the World Cup in 30p? No.

With all due respect.

[Anthony Lelli]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

Anthony, I think if you had no issues with 30p in the past, you'll have no issues with the 30p of the AX100. I would try to stay as wide as possible when panning quickly to minimize the RS issue. But depending on what's in your FOV (straight lines that are obvious to the viewer), the RS may not be much of an issue one way or the other.

I try to keep my shutter locked at 1/60th, but I can see the possibility of 1/125 working better in your application.

Thanks Ken,
I believe that it will work too, with lots of care and attentions, and I'll do exactly what you said by the way. Still this is a problem with the processing in the camera. Let's stop finding excuses like the 30p or the shutter speed because it's not. The difference between 1/60 , 1/125 and 1/180 are miniscule: it's not the speed and it's not the framerate: now it may be the incompetence of the engineers (but I don't think so) or most likely some intentional limitation (that I believe way more, getting all my bets at the moment). Because Ken these people make video cameras for a living :) They can't possibly come out with a model very good at stills but you can't move anything because it will screw up the whole thing. That's amateurish, not even teenagers work like that. Expect laughs from us, because we are not THAT stupid after all.

/rant off

that said I'm with Dave about this: we have the gear and we make it work.

[Anthony Lelli]

Originally Posted by Adam Gold

With all due respect, physics couldn't care less what you just have to do. There are physical laws that dictate what you have to do to get smooth motion with very high resolution formats. Professional film DPs have been grappling with these for close to a hundred (well, 60 or 70) years shooting fine grained 35mm, 70mm and even the more recent IMAX formats and have published charts and graphs and whole books devoted to how fast you can pan and zoom and track and achieve proper motion without artifacts. This isn't new and bears some study. This isn't uncharted territory, no pun intended. I wish Charles would weigh in on this.

Ron is right. There is a reason that no broadcast network uses anything but 60i or 60p at standard shutter speeds. Quit screwing around with frame rates and shutter speeds and just do it the normal way. There is never a good reason for 30p unless you are doing cooking videos for web distribution to be viewed only on a PC monitor. Do they do the World Cup in 30p? No.

With all due respect.

yeah , the ex1 and r and xa10 don't have 60p and work fine panning. so, what now?

I work every once in a while as a backup in a major thing in the live music video industry , and your framerate pales compared to the processing they get.those things mostly software cost an arm and a leg. and come in the form of a truckload of equipment. now you were saying about the 60p and 30p? LOL
come on.... that's for teens telling other teens which toy car runs faster

[Anthony Lelli]

Originally Posted by Adam Gold

With all due respect, physics couldn't care less what you just have to do. There are physical laws that dictate what you have to do to get smooth motion with very high resolution formats. Professional film DPs have been grappling with these for close to a hundred (well, 60 or 70) years shooting fine grained 35mm, 70mm and even the more recent IMAX formats and have published charts and graphs and whole books devoted to how fast you can pan and zoom and track and achieve proper motion without artifacts. This isn't new and bears some study. This isn't uncharted territory, no pun intended. I wish Charles would weigh in on this.

Ron is right. There is a reason that no broadcast network uses anything but 60i or 60p at standard shutter speeds. Quit screwing around with frame rates and shutter speeds and just do it the normal way. There is never a good reason for 30p unless you are doing cooking videos for web distribution to be viewed only on a PC monitor. Do they do the World Cup in 30p? No.

Actually I'm about to re-consider the whole thing here. Regardless about "broadcast stuff" needed to perform or 30p shutter, now I'm thinking about if there is room for a class thing against the manufacturer here. Given that's a bad processing, now the buyer when bought the camera (buyers usually do that) then he/she had a reasonable expectation that it would've been able to use it for what it says on the back of the LCD and the box: 4K in motion and not just stills, correct? stills are for still cameras, not camcorders, correct?

hmmm . I believe that the combination of price and advertisement gave that reasonable expectation.
yes, there may be room for a good solid class thingy here.

see? regardless of the "broadcast" and similar.
it's da processing, in there that needs to be recalled or refund.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Anthony Lelli

Thanks Ken,
I believe that it will work too, with lots of care and attentions, and I'll do exactly what you said by the way. Still this is a problem with the processing in the camera. Let's stop finding excuses like the 30p or the shutter speed because it's not. The difference between 1/60 , 1/125 and 1/180 are miniscule: it's not the speed and it's not the framerate: now it may be the incompetence of the engineers (but I don't think so) or most likely some intentional limitation (that I believe way more, getting all my bets at the moment). Because Ken these people make video cameras for a living :) They can't possibly come out with a model very good at stills but you can't move anything because it will screw up the whole thing. That's amateurish, not even teenagers work like that. Expect laughs from us, because we are not THAT stupid after all.

/rant off

that said I'm with Dave about this: we have the gear and we make it work.

We agree, you work within the limitations of the camera as we do with all cameras. But I do believe that most of the AX100 limitations are the result of 30p if the intent is to shoot a smooth action video or sports related video. I really haven't noticed limitations other than 30p in achieving the desired end result.

I think most of us agree that RS is just not the issue that some made us think it was with their wild waving of the camera back & forth. That's not to say we shouldn't be cognizant of RS, but I think 30p is far more of a limitation than either RS or anything to do with processing.

[Anthony Lelli]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

We agree, you work within the limitations of the camera as we do with all cameras. But I do believe that most of the AX100 limitations are the result of 30p if the intent is to shoot a smooth action video or sports related video. I really haven't noticed limitations other than 30p in achieving the desired end result.

I think most of us agree that RS is just not the issue that some made us think it was with their wild waving of the camera back & forth. That's not to say we shouldn't be cognizant of RS, but I think 30p is far more of a limitation than either RS or anything to do with processing.

absolutely not. It's the processing. 30p and 60p are close, there is a difference but not to explain the building across the street curving like a cartoon at the very first slow panning. come on. Everybody now can build a nice digital still camera but the AX100 is advertised as a camcorder. Sony Sony ... that's not good, not good at all. Do the right thing: recall the camera and try again , this time with motion in mind and not just stills.

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Adam Gold

There is never a good reason for 30p unless you are doing cooking videos for web distribution to be viewed only on a PC monitor. Do they do the World Cup in 30p? No.

That's what I have been saying all along but if one keeps insisting you can shoot fast moving soccer games with fast pans in 30p with no issue, then they have been choosing a wrong framerate to start with. Saying you hardly see any difference between 25p/50p or 30p/60p is also nonsense, unless you do a creeping slow pan but any faster pan will show a big difference. Combine 30p with the awful rolling shutter of the ax100 in 4K and you have the worst possible image you can get. That rolling shutter btw doesn't have to be a problem, for me it won't be an issue because all my shots are nice controlled from a tripod with slow pans, but when you insist in shooting soccer games in 4K and 30p with a ax100, that's about the worst choice you can make.

Anthony; you don't have to take any advise that's been given here of course and you can continue to blame Sony for whatever they do wrong to you but for me it would be simple, want to shoot a soccer game? shoot 1080p 60p.

[Anthony Lelli]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

That's what I have been saying all along but if one keeps insisting you can shoot fast moving soccer games with fast pans in 30p with no issue, then they have been choosing a wrong framerate to start with. Saying you hardly see any difference between 25p/50p or 30p/60p is also nonsense, unless you do a creeping slow pan but any faster pan will show a big difference. Combine 30p with the awful rolling shutter of the ax100 in 4K and you have the worst possible image you can get. That rolling shutter btw doesn't have to be a problem, for me it won't be an issue because all my shots are nice controlled from a tripod with slow pans, but when you insist in shooting soccer games in 4K and 30p with a ax100, that's about the worst choice you can make.

Anthony; you don't have to take any advise that's been given here of course and you can continue to blame Sony for whatever they do wrong to you but for me it would be simple, want to shoot a soccer game? shoot 1080p 60p.

Ive been shooting 30P with EX1 , EX1r and XA10 for years.

60P came out yesterday, and of course makes things a little easier, but just a littler bit easier. The problem with the AX100 is the processing. It was a mistake, or intentional. nothing (absolutely nothing) to do with the 30p. With this kind of amateurish processing even if it had 2000p would be bad. What I can do (and I will) is to try an external recorder over hdmi . I don't need comments on something that has been done for years in 30p and Im not going to discuss 30p anymore.

[Bruce Dempsey]

I don't know if anybody shot or remembers 16mm film which at the time wound thru my Bolex, Beaulieu and ArriBl at a constant 24fps.

[Noa Put]

aah yes, those where the days, even the Beaulieu could do 50fps :)