The Mini Only?

Tyson Perkins · November 14th, 2006, 03:01 AM

So the Macbook would not be enough - even with decked out RAM and memory card?

The specs are

Core 2 Duo - 2.33ghz
Radeion 1600XT - 256mb DDR3 Graphics
3gb RAM - to a possible 4gb if neccesary

I only need this as the computer to do the edit - with Final Cut Pro, as I am experienced with the software, can you infer whether this system will be able to cut in terms of the edit as opposed to the features which Ari had just discussed
- I am not interested in buying a Macpro as i have just purchased a new PC for work, although this is a stupid question i was wondering if i could install the Apple OS on a custom built computer- is this possible or can you only use the OS on systems pre-configured by MAC?

Joe Carney · November 14th, 2006, 09:34 AM

I was referring to the tablet as a capture device.:-)!!!

Joe Carney · November 14th, 2006, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari Presler

A custom quad core machine with high end graphics should do.

We are adding a powerful set of real-time look visualization tools which require advanced pixel shaders and texture processing which exceed the capability of current embedded graphics that are often found in the small form factor tablets.

Steve...thanks for the reality check.

I know you don't like embedded graphics, neither do I. The Gateway tablet offers an ATI 1400xt with 64megs of ram as a low cost option. It seems to be one of the few tablets that supports 667mhz ram which is also a requirement for your capture software.
But I like the direction you guys are going, my post about the nvidia 680 sli mobo and it's support for the latest and greatest from both Nvidia and Intel would appear to be a great foundation for what you are coming out with. support for Quad core extreme, dual 8800gtx... even a third graphics card if your neurotic enough to need one... a life taker and a heart breaker.:-)!!

Jason Rodriguez · November 14th, 2006, 11:20 AM

We are just saying not officially supported . . . it *should* work, but if you've built a couple PC's before, you would realize that even with all the same parts but just trading around the motherboard and RAM can make a big difference.

We can't control what every little notebook maker puts in their laptops, what chipsets they use, and what drivers they package with their systems. What we can do, and do you a favor as the end-user is say "This is a system we can guarantee works".

It may sound harsh to not give out a blanket statement and say "all this stuff will work", but that's the reality of the situation. We've been building systems, testing systems, purchasing systems, etc., and depending on the configuration, we see odd stuff with one laptop or computer that we don't see on another. One graphics card model works great and another doesn't.

We feel that it's our job to tell you what works and what doesn't so that you can have a satisfatory end-user experience. So what you're going to see from us right now is "certified systems".

Dell M90's have been worked on (Dell's been a gracious provider) and we're actively working on official certification for that laptop (we haven't released 1.0 software yet, so you can't officially certify a platform until you have a fixed software release).

MacBook Pro's are not certified and are not being actively certified.

Gateway tablet PC's are not certfied and are not being actively certified

The list goes on.

Does this mean "they won't work"? No. It does not mean that. In fact there are going to be a TON of systems that *should* work. It just means we haven't tested it. Since it is your money that you're spending, we're giving you the flexibility to say "I don't want a Dell, I'm gonna use my own". And that's fine. But you're spending your money to test that laptop for us. If it doesn't work, we don't have one here to re-duplicate your problems. If our Dell's not crashing like your laptop might, or doesn't have the drawing bug your laptop might, or some other odd problem and your laptop or non-certified computer does, we can't really help you-we can't debug what we can't re-duplicate.

We feel that for an on-set shoot, bugs are a complete no-no, much more so than a bug you might occasionally find in an editing program or something less time-sensitive. Bugs on shoots can kill shoots. And so as a result, we're providing certified systems so that you can go out in the field knowing that we have the same thing back in the office, and if you have a problem that's not due to part failures or deleting a critical file, we should have the same problem and can quickly fix it.

Steve Nordhauser · November 14th, 2006, 02:48 PM

First, I completely agree with what Jason has said. Second, I really hope that people realize that for most users, the SI-2K, not the Mini is the right answer. For a real time system, you want absolute control of what is running. On the SI-2K, that would be the SiliconDVR software and nothing else. It should work on the set with a minimum of cables every time.

So why do you want to use a laptop? If you already have one is the answer, what else is it running (you wouldn't already have it if you weren't using it)? Is there anything automatic on it (windows update, virus checking, quicktime updater, firewall, or even worse IM)? Not appropriate for a real time system. It is up to you to keep it clean.

If you are going into the field and need to do some editing on the same system, OK, that is a pretty good reason. Especially if you are carrying it around with no access to other machines. Saving some money....*IF* you use the laptop for editing also....not great but buy the M90 and don't put your mail program or anything else on it.

The last issue is updates. We are telling you now that features will be added. That is a good thing, right up until your PC you built as a bargain stops working with the latest update. Our limit of the resources an update can use will be the benchmark systems.

Hopefully these last two posts explain not just the rules but the reasoning. We would rather you understood the underlying thinking so you know it isn't an arbitrary edict.

-Steve

Jason Rodriguez · November 14th, 2006, 03:31 PM

Yes, as Steve noted, one thing to keep in mind is that our SI-2K system will have a very, very controlled WinXPe (embedded) system. This is like embedded Linux, and actually surprisingly more stable, as it only includes the WinXP kernel, and any drivers, controls we need to make the system run-that's it. Nothing else. Since it's a very controlled hardware/software platform, expect quite a bit of stability from that setup, and of the issues that might/do arise, they should be very repeatable and fixable.

Joe Carney · November 14th, 2006, 08:56 PM

Quote:

The last issue is updates. We are telling you now that features will be added. That is a good thing, right up until your PC you built as a bargain stops working with the latest update. Our limit of the resources an update can use will be the benchmark systems.

I never said I build a 'bargain' system. In fact I have systems built with the highest quality parts. I don't skimp on a system important as that, and resent you implying otherwise. My current system has been running reliably for almost 4 years without a single glitch.

Steve Nordhauser · November 14th, 2006, 09:36 PM

Joe,
You misunderstood my meaning or I did not make it clear. The preferred solution is to sell the SI-2K which does not need any external computer to be a camera - everything is self contained for recording. You do not need to go elsewhere to find a camera that we can fully support.

I'm not sure what your reason is to want to build a computer to record with the camera. If it isn't to save a few dollars between the fully integrated solution and the Mini, what is the advantage? I'm curious from the point of view of understanding the market. We thought that the Dells offered both a laptop and workstation solution, easy purchase anywhere along with support.

I'm not sure where the FUD is that you see. You are welcome to run our software on any machine. We can't tell you what problems you will face because we can't test your machine. Are you willing to be completely accepting when you buy a $12.5K camera from us and can't get it running on your machine because we are incompatible with the RAID system? Most people will blame us for incomplete testing and expect a solution. This would come at the expense of development and testing time. Multiply it by 10... or 100 or more people with custom systems and we are stopped in our tracks.

I think we run with less FUD that most companies. Sure if there is uncertainty, we tell you. I guess our uncertainty is less doubtful. Known uncertainty. Sorry, tired.
Steve

Tyson Perkins · November 14th, 2006, 09:44 PM

Have you tested on MAC, as i am sure a major load of your customer base would be find in the alternate operating system?

Ari Presler · November 15th, 2006, 12:15 AM

We have not yet tested the new Core 2 Duo Macbook with our latest rev of software. The specs seem right. We may have to look at having one of the these machines as an additional "certified machines" assuming the demand is there to drive it.

As I mentioned earlier, we are adding tremendous visualization capability. This now includes real-time 2K (2048 x 1152) CinefromRAW decoding, colorization, white balance, 3D-LUT look transformation and dual simultaneous output on local LCD and external DVI. These added capabilities are driving the need for more powerful machines. Today, I can say with certainty it is performing on the Dell M90 Notebook! We will try to get you more feedback on the Mac over the next few weeks.

Tyson Perkins · November 15th, 2006, 12:56 AM

My Macbook Pro has better specs than the M90, that is a positive at least, before testing is conclusive.

Joe Carney · November 15th, 2006, 09:12 AM

Steve, I'm agreeing with you in principle. Dell has a great ISV certification program and for a small a company that can give you and your customers a sense of legitimacy and keep support costs down at the same time. It's a smart move. I appreciate you folks being upfront about your requirements so there is no excuse down the road. Most companies wouldn't be that forthright.

I also think one should by the whole kit( body included) to insure stable and reliable performance. But there are situations where one would want to use the head only (which the folks making spoon showed quite well) and I would like to put together a system that actually exceeds what dell is offering. I'm referring to a desktop system btw.

I can't afford to buy lots of computers, so I want to build one that can perform various duties. I'm also thinking of the best system for running Premier and ProspectHD along with SI capture software and compositing and 3d modelling and animation software when needed.

We've been speculating for months about various configurations for this camera, thats part of it's appeal. Now, this late in the game, we're told thats not such a good idea. The benefits of a tablet are obvious to all, even if not certified. Basically we were having a lot of fun with the idea. The possibilities of different configurations is the only reason I didn't go and put a down payment on RED.

After all this, we haven't even talked about 64bit version of vista :0

Ari Presler · November 15th, 2006, 10:58 AM

Joe,

I am less concerned with desktop systems versus fixed function notebook/tablets, as you do have the option to easily upgrade parts, if required.

I am sure your system will be fully decked out if you also plan on doing your editing on the same machine!

Here is a good read on the new Intel Quad cores:

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35723

We will give you the guidelines for the systems we use. The rest is up to you :-) !

Thomas English · November 15th, 2006, 01:56 PM

can I edit my imbedded .look file using a small m500 mobile phone? running pocket windows! can I sit back whilst my focus puller lines up shots and discuss grades tweaking on my wireless mobile phone and watching the changes!

Joe Carney · November 15th, 2006, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari Presler

Joe,

I am less concerned with desktop systems versus fixed function notebook/tablets, as you do have the option to easily upgrade parts, if required.

I am sure your system will be fully decked out if you also plan on doing your editing on the same machine!

Here is a good read on the new Intel Quad cores:

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35723

We will give you the guidelines for the systems we use. The rest is up to you :-) !

Okay, now check out this review of nvidia 680 sli based mobos. Good even if I stick with a core 2 dual system.

http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=4215

November 14th, 2006, 09:34 AM	#32
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	I was referring to the tablet as a capture device.:-)!!! __________________ Boycott Guinness, bring back the pint!!!

November 14th, 2006, 02:48 PM	#35
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	First, I completely agree with what Jason has said. Second, I really hope that people realize that for most users, the SI-2K, not the Mini is the right answer. For a real time system, you want absolute control of what is running. On the SI-2K, that would be the SiliconDVR software and nothing else. It should work on the set with a minimum of cables every time. So why do you want to use a laptop? If you already have one is the answer, what else is it running (you wouldn't already have it if you weren't using it)? Is there anything automatic on it (windows update, virus checking, quicktime updater, firewall, or even worse IM)? Not appropriate for a real time system. It is up to you to keep it clean. If you are going into the field and need to do some editing on the same system, OK, that is a pretty good reason. Especially if you are carrying it around with no access to other machines. Saving some money....IF you use the laptop for editing also....not great but buy the M90 and don't put your mail program or anything else on it. The last issue is updates. We are telling you now that features will be added. That is a good thing, right up until your PC you built as a bargain stops working with the latest update. Our limit of the resources an update can use will be the benchmark systems. Hopefully these last two posts explain not just the rules but the reasoning. We would rather you understood the underlying thinking so you know it isn't an arbitrary edict. -Steve __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

November 14th, 2006, 09:36 PM	#38
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	Joe, You misunderstood my meaning or I did not make it clear. The preferred solution is to sell the SI-2K which does not need any external computer to be a camera - everything is self contained for recording. You do not need to go elsewhere to find a camera that we can fully support. I'm not sure what your reason is to want to build a computer to record with the camera. If it isn't to save a few dollars between the fully integrated solution and the Mini, what is the advantage? I'm curious from the point of view of understanding the market. We thought that the Dells offered both a laptop and workstation solution, easy purchase anywhere along with support. I'm not sure where the FUD is that you see. You are welcome to run our software on any machine. We can't tell you what problems you will face because we can't test your machine. Are you willing to be completely accepting when you buy a $12.5K camera from us and can't get it running on your machine because we are incompatible with the RAID system? Most people will blame us for incomplete testing and expect a solution. This would come at the expense of development and testing time. Multiply it by 10... or 100 or more people with custom systems and we are stopped in our tracks. I think we run with less FUD that most companies. Sure if there is uncertainty, we tell you. I guess our uncertainty is less doubtful. Known uncertainty. Sorry, tired. Steve __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

November 15th, 2006, 09:12 AM	#42
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	Steve, I'm agreeing with you in principle. Dell has a great ISV certification program and for a small a company that can give you and your customers a sense of legitimacy and keep support costs down at the same time. It's a smart move. I appreciate you folks being upfront about your requirements so there is no excuse down the road. Most companies wouldn't be that forthright. I also think one should by the whole kit( body included) to insure stable and reliable performance. But there are situations where one would want to use the head only (which the folks making spoon showed quite well) and I would like to put together a system that actually exceeds what dell is offering. I'm referring to a desktop system btw. I can't afford to buy lots of computers, so I want to build one that can perform various duties. I'm also thinking of the best system for running Premier and ProspectHD along with SI capture software and compositing and 3d modelling and animation software when needed. We've been speculating for months about various configurations for this camera, thats part of it's appeal. Now, this late in the game, we're told thats not such a good idea. The benefits of a tablet are obvious to all, even if not certified. Basically we were having a lot of fun with the idea. The possibilities of different configurations is the only reason I didn't go and put a down payment on RED. After all this, we haven't even talked about 64bit version of vista :0 __________________ Boycott Guinness, bring back the pint!!!

November 15th, 2006, 01:56 PM	#44
Thomas English New Boot Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: UK Posts: 24	can I edit my imbedded .look file using a small m500 mobile phone? running pocket windows! can I sit back whilst my focus puller lines up shots and discuss grades tweaking on my wireless mobile phone and watching the changes! __________________ thomas english www.thomasenglish.co.uk

November 14th, 2006, 03:01 AM	#31
Tyson Perkins Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: sydney, australia Posts: 221	So the Macbook would not be enough - even with decked out RAM and memory card? The specs are Core 2 Duo - 2.33ghz Radeion 1600XT - 256mb DDR3 Graphics 3gb RAM - to a possible 4gb if neccesary I only need this as the computer to do the edit - with Final Cut Pro, as I am experienced with the software, can you infer whether this system will be able to cut in terms of the edit as opposed to the features which Ari had just discussed - I am not interested in buying a Macpro as i have just purchased a new PC for work, although this is a stupid question i was wondering if i could install the Apple OS on a custom built computer- is this possible or can you only use the OS on systems pre-configured by MAC?

November 14th, 2006, 11:20 AM	#34
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	We are just saying not officially supported . . . it should work, but if you've built a couple PC's before, you would realize that even with all the same parts but just trading around the motherboard and RAM can make a big difference. We can't control what every little notebook maker puts in their laptops, what chipsets they use, and what drivers they package with their systems. What we can do, and do you a favor as the end-user is say "This is a system we can guarantee works". It may sound harsh to not give out a blanket statement and say "all this stuff will work", but that's the reality of the situation. We've been building systems, testing systems, purchasing systems, etc., and depending on the configuration, we see odd stuff with one laptop or computer that we don't see on another. One graphics card model works great and another doesn't. We feel that it's our job to tell you what works and what doesn't so that you can have a satisfatory end-user experience. So what you're going to see from us right now is "certified systems". Dell M90's have been worked on (Dell's been a gracious provider) and we're actively working on official certification for that laptop (we haven't released 1.0 software yet, so you can't officially certify a platform until you have a fixed software release). MacBook Pro's are not certified and are not being actively certified. Gateway tablet PC's are not certfied and are not being actively certified The list goes on. Does this mean "they won't work"? No. It does not mean that. In fact there are going to be a TON of systems that should work. It just means we haven't tested it. Since it is your money that you're spending, we're giving you the flexibility to say "I don't want a Dell, I'm gonna use my own". And that's fine. But you're spending your money to test that laptop for us. If it doesn't work, we don't have one here to re-duplicate your problems. If our Dell's not crashing like your laptop might, or doesn't have the drawing bug your laptop might, or some other odd problem and your laptop or non-certified computer does, we can't really help you-we can't debug what we can't re-duplicate. We feel that for an on-set shoot, bugs are a complete no-no, much more so than a bug you might occasionally find in an editing program or something less time-sensitive. Bugs on shoots can kill shoots. And so as a result, we're providing certified systems so that you can go out in the field knowing that we have the same thing back in the office, and if you have a problem that's not due to part failures or deleting a critical file, we should have the same problem and can quickly fix it.

November 14th, 2006, 03:31 PM	#36
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Yes, as Steve noted, one thing to keep in mind is that our SI-2K system will have a very, very controlled WinXPe (embedded) system. This is like embedded Linux, and actually surprisingly more stable, as it only includes the WinXP kernel, and any drivers, controls we need to make the system run-that's it. Nothing else. Since it's a very controlled hardware/software platform, expect quite a bit of stability from that setup, and of the issues that might/do arise, they should be very repeatable and fixable.

November 14th, 2006, 09:44 PM	#39
Tyson Perkins Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: sydney, australia Posts: 221	Have you tested on MAC, as i am sure a major load of your customer base would be find in the alternate operating system?

November 15th, 2006, 12:15 AM	#40
Ari Presler Silicon Imaging Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New York or Hollywood Posts: 214	We have not yet tested the new Core 2 Duo Macbook with our latest rev of software. The specs seem right. We may have to look at having one of the these machines as an additional "certified machines" assuming the demand is there to drive it. As I mentioned earlier, we are adding tremendous visualization capability. This now includes real-time 2K (2048 x 1152) CinefromRAW decoding, colorization, white balance, 3D-LUT look transformation and dual simultaneous output on local LCD and external DVI. These added capabilities are driving the need for more powerful machines. Today, I can say with certainty it is performing on the Dell M90 Notebook! We will try to get you more feedback on the Mac over the next few weeks.

November 15th, 2006, 12:56 AM	#41
Tyson Perkins Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: sydney, australia Posts: 221	My Macbook Pro has better specs than the M90, that is a positive at least, before testing is conclusive.

November 15th, 2006, 10:58 AM	#43
Ari Presler Silicon Imaging Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New York or Hollywood Posts: 214	Joe, I am less concerned with desktop systems versus fixed function notebook/tablets, as you do have the option to easily upgrade parts, if required. I am sure your system will be fully decked out if you also plan on doing your editing on the same machine! Here is a good read on the new Intel Quad cores: http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35723 We will give you the guidelines for the systems we use. The rest is up to you :-) !