Behind the Scenes footage from Spoon!

Ari Presler · July 4th, 2006, 09:24 AM

1.) The current preview operation delivers a native image resolution of 960x540 on to a 1280x720 monitor output. This 7" LCD has a scalor which takes the 1280x720 signal and drives a 800x480 screen. You have the choice to have the controls visible around the image or have the entire (960x540) image fit the entire (800x480) display. A 2x zoom mode takes the center 50% of the image and fills the entire image window for fine focus adjustment. A magnify/metering mode allows you to select a zone to display with full demosaic at a 1:1 ratio while simultaneously giving you a spot meter value for the center of it.

The preview output resolution matches the preview monitor quite well. The same preview output (1280x720) is also output (mirrored) to the video village to display on large LCD's. These LCD's usually have higher potential resolution (up to 1920x1080) but we currently have to keep both displays at the same resolution. There is not enough processing horsepower and memory bandwidth in the current generation of embedded and notebook architectures to generate another real-time HD signal while doing all of our other acquisition and recording tasks.

For those using a Silicon Mini in a studio environment, where it is possible to use full power workstations, we are discussing adding modes to support a full res 1080P display. But this is not scheduled for the 1.0 release. The wonderful thing about our architecture is we are only a software release away!

For those who may not have see the UI:

http://www.siliconimaging.com/Digita..._interface.jpg)

ftp://www.atomic-vfx.com/spoon_test_...D%20Screen.wmv

http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news...ines/6536.html

2.) On the compression efficiency question, the Cineform RAW codec was developed specifically for bayer data and perfroms wavelet coding on correlated data points to achieve a 5:1 visually lossless data reduction.

3.) The max fps in 1080P is 30. In 720P, we can go up to 72fps. This spec is driven by the GigE interface of ~100MB/sec.

1920 x 1080 x 30P x 12bit = 93 MB/sec
1280 x 720 x 72P x 12bit = 100 MB/sec

Does anyone think there is a market for another premium product which can operate up to 1080/60P? Special Effects work?

PS. Thanks for all the positive feedback. We like to hear it!!!

Barlow Elton · July 4th, 2006, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari Presler

1.)3.) The max fps in 1080P is 30. In 720P, we can go up to 72fps. This spec is driven by the GigE interface of ~100MB/sec.

1920 x 1080 x 30P x 12bit = 93 MB/sec
1280 x 720 x 72P x 12bit = 100 MB/sec

Very interesting..thanks for the bit rate breakdown. :)

Quote:

Does anyone think there is a market for another premium product which can operate up to 1080/60P? Special Effects work?

Absolutely! *pulling out pockets...just lint*

Ari, the more I learn about your camera and the defined workflow the more I am floored. I can't wait for FCP compatibility! Kudos to S.I./Cineform for such an amazingly forward thinking product!

Poor man's Viper indeed...but with a manageable poor man's workflow!

Pete Tomov · July 4th, 2006, 01:50 PM

When can I buy the camera?I have a project comming up and i'd really love to do some testing with this.
Also,does the head-only set include the 7" LCD ?
I already have storage.

Bob Grant · July 4th, 2006, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari Presler

Does anyone think there is a market for another premium product which can operate up to 1080/60P? Special Effects work?

Absolutely, we're looking at one or more cameras for rental so 60p acquisition would be very desirable. I think 60p acquisition is the way of the future, it'll be the new 24p

Jason Rodriguez · July 4th, 2006, 07:32 PM

Quote:

I think 60p acquisition is the way of the future, it'll be the new 24p

Not to sidetrack the discussion, but 60P origination will work for "live" T.V., etc., but not for film . . . there have been numerous formats in the past that increased the frame-rate of film and have failed. Stuff like Todd-AO, etc.

If you move faster than 24fps, it's simply not going to look like "film", with that dreamy, non-realistic/artistic "look".

60fps will look like 60i in regards to the motion of objects, meaning that it will look very "news"-like, or like reality TV, not movies. If that's what you want, then fine, but realize that 60P will look *much* different than 24P; hyper-real rather than what we're used to seeing from films.

Ari Presler · July 5th, 2006, 07:14 AM

Three more clips were posted today. They just keep getting better. I think they are "Spoon"ing them to us a little at a time!!!!!

http://www.indiefilmlive.blogspot.com/

Jason...Thanks for the comments on 60P.
Barlow...keep earning some lint. We want to make sure you have enough saved up by FCP release
Pete...7" LCD is ala-carte. I also emailed you to coordinate delivery schedule.

Bob Grant · July 7th, 2006, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Rodriguez

Not to sidetrack the discussion, but 60P origination will work for "live" T.V., etc., but not for film . . . there have been numerous formats in the past that increased the frame-rate of film and have failed. Stuff like Todd-AO, etc.

60fps will look like 60i in regards to the motion of objects, meaning that it will look very "news"-like, or like reality TV, not movies. If that's what you want, then fine, but realize that 60P will look *much* different than 24P; hyper-real rather than what we're used to seeing from films.

IMAX runs at 48fps, hardly a failure. Why get hung up on antiquated, budget constrained technology. I've seen 60fps 35mm and all I can say is WOW. With digital projection it's now affordable for the masses, good ridance to all the limitations of 24fps and it's horrid, nightmare like look.

Anyway, even if you're stuck with 24fps deliver, the OPTION of 60p acqusition offers overcrank for slomo.

Robert Shaver · July 8th, 2006, 04:24 PM

When I was a kid and just starting to go to pictures by myself I noticed how stroby/jerky fast pans or fast motion was on the screen. It took me out of the story. I frankly can not understand this fanatical adoration of film-look.

I love the hiper-real look. I've seen my friends HDV footage on his HDTV and it's breathtaking... like looking out a window. (It was shot with a Sony Z1 so it still has motion artifacts with fast motion.)

I will not miss the film-look when it dies... the sooner the better!

Kyle Granger · July 9th, 2006, 05:10 AM

> IMAX runs at 48fps, hardly a failure. ... I've seen 60fps 35mm and all I can say is WOW.

I believe IMAX runs at 48fps only for 3d, with two 24fps channels.

I saw 60fps 70mm (Showscan) in Las Vegas, and it did look amazing. But unfortunately (to quote a general in Lawrence of Arabia), it was "a sideshow of a sideshow).

> With digital projection it's now affordable for the masses, good ridance to all the limitations of 24fps and it's horrid, nightmare like look.

48.00 fps is supported in the DCI specifiction. For 2048x1080 resolution.

3D digital cinema also uses this mode, now, but for two 24fps channels.

EDIT: I stand corrected on IMAX. IMAX-HD is indeed 48 fps. A very expensive proposition for a feature film, I would think.

Bob Grant · July 9th, 2006, 07:29 AM

Well IMAX is a very expensive proposition for anything and feature length films are impossible as they have never built a projector(s) capable of more than 40 minute reels and even a 40 minute reel weighs a ton.
Of course we'll never see 35mm run at anything but 24fps, older projectors I think did have the ability to vary the fps but nor anymore without changing the gears.

However digital projection does offer to free us from that limitation, there's even talk of using variable frame rates, low for the traditional 'look' and high rates for fast action scenes.

However back to the SI camera, 60fps does offer many advantages even if you don't want to deliver 60p or 60i, plenty of film is shot overcranked (I even recall a recent production where some scenes were shot handcranked!), being able to do that on a digital film camera is kind of vital, even Sony offer a HD camera capable of 150fps for sports and slo mo work. Hopefully that'll free the broadcasters from one thing I think we can all agree looks awefull, shooting fast action with fast shutter speeds. I believe this is only done to get better slomo but I cannot stand the stroby look of it at normal speed.

Jason Rodriguez · July 9th, 2006, 11:50 AM

BTW, the biggest hurdle to 1080/60P is that it's not a distribution spec for encoded media.

It's not a DCI spec. It's not a SMPTE spec. It's not an ATSC spec for HD broadcast. You can't encode material at 1080/60P for HD-DVD or Blue-ray. For editing, there's only one video card on the market (AJA Kona 3 which is Mac-only) that can display a 1080/60P signal.

So right now, origination at 1080/60P for the purpose of displaying your content at full-resolution 1080/60P is a dead-end street. It's best use is for over-cranking special effects and/or special venue displays that are on a closed system (so the necessity to conform to a given spec is diminished).

There are LCD-TV displays that can to 1080/60P at the display-level, but the content that you must pump into it (encoded media), has to originate at 1080/60i or 1080/30P, or 1080/24P, etc. . . .there's no spec for encoded media at 1080/60P.

July 4th, 2006, 09:24 AM	#16
Ari Presler Silicon Imaging Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New York or Hollywood Posts: 214	Preview Monitoring and UI 1.) The current preview operation delivers a native image resolution of 960x540 on to a 1280x720 monitor output. This 7" LCD has a scalor which takes the 1280x720 signal and drives a 800x480 screen. You have the choice to have the controls visible around the image or have the entire (960x540) image fit the entire (800x480) display. A 2x zoom mode takes the center 50% of the image and fills the entire image window for fine focus adjustment. A magnify/metering mode allows you to select a zone to display with full demosaic at a 1:1 ratio while simultaneously giving you a spot meter value for the center of it. The preview output resolution matches the preview monitor quite well. The same preview output (1280x720) is also output (mirrored) to the video village to display on large LCD's. These LCD's usually have higher potential resolution (up to 1920x1080) but we currently have to keep both displays at the same resolution. There is not enough processing horsepower and memory bandwidth in the current generation of embedded and notebook architectures to generate another real-time HD signal while doing all of our other acquisition and recording tasks. For those using a Silicon Mini in a studio environment, where it is possible to use full power workstations, we are discussing adding modes to support a full res 1080P display. But this is not scheduled for the 1.0 release. The wonderful thing about our architecture is we are only a software release away! For those who may not have see the UI: http://www.siliconimaging.com/Digita..._interface.jpg) ftp://www.atomic-vfx.com/spoon_test_...D%20Screen.wmv http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news...ines/6536.html 2.) On the compression efficiency question, the Cineform RAW codec was developed specifically for bayer data and perfroms wavelet coding on correlated data points to achieve a 5:1 visually lossless data reduction. 3.) The max fps in 1080P is 30. In 720P, we can go up to 72fps. This spec is driven by the GigE interface of ~100MB/sec. 1920 x 1080 x 30P x 12bit = 93 MB/sec 1280 x 720 x 72P x 12bit = 100 MB/sec Does anyone think there is a market for another premium product which can operate up to 1080/60P? Special Effects work? PS. Thanks for all the positive feedback. We like to hear it!!!

July 5th, 2006, 07:14 AM	#21
Ari Presler Silicon Imaging Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New York or Hollywood Posts: 214	Behind the Scenes II Three more clips were posted today. They just keep getting better. I think they are "Spoon"ing them to us a little at a time!!!!! http://www.indiefilmlive.blogspot.com/ Jason...Thanks for the comments on 60P. Barlow...keep earning some lint. We want to make sure you have enough saved up by FCP release Pete...7" LCD is ala-carte. I also emailed you to coordinate delivery schedule.

July 8th, 2006, 04:24 PM	#23
Robert Shaver New Boot Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 15	Film-look When I was a kid and just starting to go to pictures by myself I noticed how stroby/jerky fast pans or fast motion was on the screen. It took me out of the story. I frankly can not understand this fanatical adoration of film-look. I love the hiper-real look. I've seen my friends HDV footage on his HDTV and it's breathtaking... like looking out a window. (It was shot with a Sony Z1 so it still has motion artifacts with fast motion.) I will not miss the film-look when it dies... the sooner the better! __________________ Peace, Love, Laughter, Rob:-]

July 4th, 2006, 01:50 PM	#18
Pete Tomov Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 106	When can I buy the camera?I have a project comming up and i'd really love to do some testing with this. Also,does the head-only set include the 7" LCD ? I already have storage.

July 9th, 2006, 05:10 AM	#24
Kyle Granger Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: . Posts: 52	> IMAX runs at 48fps, hardly a failure. ... I've seen 60fps 35mm and all I can say is WOW. I believe IMAX runs at 48fps only for 3d, with two 24fps channels. I saw 60fps 70mm (Showscan) in Las Vegas, and it did look amazing. But unfortunately (to quote a general in Lawrence of Arabia), it was "a sideshow of a sideshow). > With digital projection it's now affordable for the masses, good ridance to all the limitations of 24fps and it's horrid, nightmare like look. 48.00 fps is supported in the DCI specifiction. For 2048x1080 resolution. 3D digital cinema also uses this mode, now, but for two 24fps channels. EDIT: I stand corrected on IMAX. IMAX-HD is indeed 48 fps. A very expensive proposition for a feature film, I would think.

July 9th, 2006, 07:29 AM	#25
Bob Grant Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,570	Well IMAX is a very expensive proposition for anything and feature length films are impossible as they have never built a projector(s) capable of more than 40 minute reels and even a 40 minute reel weighs a ton. Of course we'll never see 35mm run at anything but 24fps, older projectors I think did have the ability to vary the fps but nor anymore without changing the gears. However digital projection does offer to free us from that limitation, there's even talk of using variable frame rates, low for the traditional 'look' and high rates for fast action scenes. However back to the SI camera, 60fps does offer many advantages even if you don't want to deliver 60p or 60i, plenty of film is shot overcranked (I even recall a recent production where some scenes were shot handcranked!), being able to do that on a digital film camera is kind of vital, even Sony offer a HD camera capable of 150fps for sports and slo mo work. Hopefully that'll free the broadcasters from one thing I think we can all agree looks awefull, shooting fast action with fast shutter speeds. I believe this is only done to get better slomo but I cannot stand the stroby look of it at normal speed.

July 9th, 2006, 11:50 AM	#26
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	BTW, the biggest hurdle to 1080/60P is that it's not a distribution spec for encoded media. It's not a DCI spec. It's not a SMPTE spec. It's not an ATSC spec for HD broadcast. You can't encode material at 1080/60P for HD-DVD or Blue-ray. For editing, there's only one video card on the market (AJA Kona 3 which is Mac-only) that can display a 1080/60P signal. So right now, origination at 1080/60P for the purpose of displaying your content at full-resolution 1080/60P is a dead-end street. It's best use is for over-cranking special effects and/or special venue displays that are on a closed system (so the necessity to conform to a given spec is diminished). There are LCD-TV displays that can to 1080/60P at the display-level, but the content that you must pump into it (encoded media), has to originate at 1080/60i or 1080/30P, or 1080/24P, etc. . . .there's no spec for encoded media at 1080/60P.